Dicussion about Discord server for Krita

This topic was split from another topic. I split the topic to keep the discord topic in a separate thread.
Quoting relevant section about Discord in my initial reply in that topic -

On discord too we have one or two developers lurking and answering stuff, although it is not official. Members from Krita team try to be in most community spaces and answer things whenever they see anything. Being official or not doesn’t matter, what matters is the engagement and that is happening there, so it is doing a good job. If there is any need for official help someone from the team steps up and answers or guides the user to the correct place for answers.

Krita’s community is built around volunteers who step up and do the job of helping others and building the community, due to developers being already overloaded by work they can’t be present or manage every channel. And it is also not good to force a dev or team member to be on a channel to maintain it. it is their choice. For example some developers may close their Reddit account and soon no one from the official team might be there. That doesn’t mean volunteers can’t take over and handle it.

With the growing number of Krita users these kinds of community will be springing up a lot, there will be many forums, chatrooms etc. it is best left to the community to shape and build it. Who knows may be in future we would also have a Krita User Group meet up event in various parts of the world.

Regarding making discord an official channel for communication, the most important reason against it is that it is closed source, and it is not even possible to self-host it. What happens when discord takes control and shuts down your official channel? IRC and matrix chatroom is the official chat channel. For those who like discord there is the Krita channel, and it is a good place, people help each other and solve issues. What would make it any different with the “official” tag?

In the official chatroom on IRC / matrix we hold weekly meetings and other stuff and for now the developers are comfortable with it. Apart from the meetings and development discussions by core developers on it, it is no different from the discord channel. People join ask questions chat share artworks etc. It is just a matter of choice, discord is the new hype today, tomorrow it would be something else. But IRC is there from the beginning and probably will there for years, so it makes sense to stay in a stable place.

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thanks @raghukamath , I didn’t know this and this is very useful information!

Meant respectfully, but why is being shut down by discord itself even something that is being considered?
They host so many communities on such a broad range of topics that it would hurt themselves if they did.
Of course unless the topic of the community itself is something violent or dangerous, which wouldn’t apply in the case of Krita, and in fact all the Discord art communities I’m a member of have rules against pornographic material etc.

I’m unfamiliar with IRC/matrix, and I expect this is the case for many people.
If it’s a bit user friendly it’s fine I guess.
I have personally been using Discord for a number of years now for many different communities, art related, DnD related, for specific games etc.
I don’t expect it to be replaced by anything anytime soon.

I was under the assumption that the Krita Artists facebook page wasn’t ‘official’.
It’s good to know that it is and I’m really happy and grateful for all the work volunteers put in.

If your community platform/comms-channel is owned or controlled by someone else, there are some bad possible scenarios.
Here’s an interesting pair of articles:
Freenode IRC staff resign en masse, unhappy about new management • The Register
After staff revolt, Freenode management takes over hundreds of IRC channels for 'policy violations' • The Register

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Alright, let me rephrase.

What I mean is a presence on discord in an official capacity, much like many game developers do.
THE official information channel should be this forum I think.

There was a debate about discord on reddit too and the person arguing for discord also pointed that discord is user friendly. However I am sure they have not tried irc too. to join Krita channel all you have to do is

  1. Go to this page - Kiwi IRC
  2. Fill in a name (nick) if you need. and click the green start button.

Done in two clicks you are in the chat with the users and developers. The matrix channel will be bridged to this IRC room and signup of matrix is similar to that of discord. So I think people just want to use what they are familiar with or whatever the hype of the day is. It is not that the existing solutions are not user friendly.

The problem about discord is that it is closed source, and it is owned by a for profit company. The company can be bought by someone or shutdown anytime. The company can do various things. It may be the best thing today, but it might not be there 10-20 years down the line. And IRC was there from ages probably from past 20-30 years, and it will probably be there for more years. I agree IRC is text only and sounds boring for people used to sending stickers and animated memes and GIFs in the chat, but for those use cases there is free and open source chat protocol called matrix. Which is similar to discord.

Nevertheless, there is already a discord channel for people who want krita channel on discord. In my personal opinion bringing all the hyperactive media loaded chat to the official channel will be a bit too much to digest. I like how the current IRC channel is busy but with relevant things. It takes too much energy to keep up with discord type of messaging, and it may not be the best thing. This is my personal opinion and not that of the Krita team

Why is that a requirement? Is having an official tag on discord that important for people joining the existing krita channel there? Having official tag would mean that users would expect support from the devs. And then it will be problematic for the devs to be there all the time. They already answer many questions in various different places (including the above mentioned discord channel) which takes away their time from actually doing development task. I don’t see how having the “Official” tag on discord channel would do any good.

For anyone wanting to join Krita community on discord here is the link - https://discord.gg/MmrgH8d

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Mainly because it could then be a place where information about updates and coming features is shared simultaneously with it happening here or on Youtube.
The same thing applies when for example Ramon or David post a video, people will immediately be directed to it.
Not meant as a requirement at all, but I personally can see the benefits.

I agree that support there would increase the workload, I had not considered that.

By the way, it took me quite some time to find the Krita discord, so maybe mentioning it in a pinned forum thread and in the description of youtube videos could help.

People share news on the discord and from what I have seen last time when I was lurking there to check out, there was a bot pasting all the link from Reddit, so no issue of news not being shared on that channel. In addition to that bot I guess @RamonM and @tiar are too on that channel, so any news would be shared there by them, I think. Some discord users are on this forum too, so they would also share the news.

I don’t see why we should specifically pin discord thread, but maybe we should have a thread with links all the communication channels in page with a brief description of each. Kind of like this page - Community — blender.org. We can ask @scottyp for this feature request on the Krita website.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not against someone using discord, all I am saying is having any presence in the social media or any space can be done by volunteers and if the devs need it they will use it, and it will become official if required. Soon there will be some new thing tomorrow, then there will be people asking for developers to be on that platform. Having an official account is not a problem, but who will manage it? It will be great if community creates the space for themselves by using the technology they want.

PS. The issue of Krita channel not being easy to find is a problem of discord, if it was so easy to use it would have made joining required channel easy. It is easy on IRC it is easy on matrix, you just search for Krita in the channel list. Discord has some serious issues in UX if users can’t find channels easily.

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I have a discord account, but I’m just unable to understand how to discord.
So I don’t use it :joy:

It could be a good thing to have a list.
There’s nowadays so many social network, it’s like a jungle.

Hope nobody will ask for an official tiktok Krita account :sweat_smile:

Grum999

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That is one of the “flaws” in Discord’s design imo, a choice rather I think but not necessarily done in a user friendly way.
The way it works is that community owners direct their community to their Discord server(s), not the other way around where you can search Discord for servers.

This made me laugh so hard, just imagine…

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Regarding Discord vs IRC, I’m just going to say I stopped going to the IRC channel because it doesn’t have a chat history. If I discussed some development issue there, and then wanted to double check what was decided or discussed, but I had closed my browser, I was out of luck. Eventually I decided I would do all discussion of ideas here on KA, so there’s always a record I can go back to. Discord at least keeps a chat record, so I can always see what was said when I wasn’t actually logged in.

I just went to the Krita Discord, and it does say that the developers don’t check it, so I guess I’ll stick to KA for all development discussions. Or is there a separate Discord channel for development now?

I initially overlooked this, thanks!

To me not having a chat history or ‘channels’ where you can look up useful information is a big issue.

This illustrates that point in a very clear manner, just my personal opinion but seeing that for the first time when entering immediately makes me think “NOPE!”.

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No there is no development channel on discord.

I agree the lack of backlog is a problem in IRC. You can use matrix for that - https://webchat.kde.org/ is kde matrix server which will be bridged to the IRC channel (It was bridged to the channel earlier but there is some migration work happening at this moment) so you can connect to IRC while having backlog and having all the modern features of a chat app. You can read more about the KDE matrix server here - Matrix - KDE Community Wiki. Matrix is Free Software like Krita and you can self-host it if you want able unlike Discord. There are many clients for matrix unlike discord. Not that it is relevant here in this discussion, but it also has end-to-end encryption, which I doubt to be in discord.

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Well as I said if you want backlog and all the shiny feature you can use matrix which is usually bridged to IRC. Also, if you are serious about using only IRC there are clients like quassel which you can selfhost and connect to IRC to have backlog for yourself etc. There are things like irccloud too.

I did not understand the point about the screenshot, what is the issue in it?

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It has to do with there being no chat backlog.
The screenshot suggests that you need to stay online until your message is being addressed.
A number of us live in different timezones and I personally am used to having to wait for a response if any.
That works great here on this forum as well as on Discord because things aren’t necessarily in real time.

As for IRC, I’m not used to it so I am definitely biased but having to have tool Y and extension X to get features like a backlog is a turnoff to me.

My personal conclusion so far would be that neither Discord or IRC are ideal options.

There are many users who join the chatroom and ask question and in 1 second they disconnect. While a developers or users has finished typing the answer and press enter they see the user has just vanished and no these users don’t come back to check if there is a backlog.

They expect 1-second answers, that is why that warning is written in the header.

And matrix is not an extension to IRC it is its own thing like discord. You don’t have to use IRC for using matrix. It just has a mechanism to bridge IRC and Krita chatroom on matrix server, so that people who want IRC can use it and people who want matrix can use it. There also bridges to telegram and other services I believe discord too. So by using matrix if there is a bridge for a service you can contact anyone from other service. Again there is no need to use IRC you can join matrix room just as you join a discord server and be upto date with the things happening on the dev chatroom. The difference is matrix is free software and discord is not. There is also a difference of users willingness to embrace free software. People often are attracted to proprietary things.

With that being said. I am not trying to convince you in using anything use what you want. :slight_smile: And I doubt you will get convinced since you are big fan of discord.

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Fair enough.

I think by ‘free’ you mean open source, because using Discord is completely free of charge unless you want functionality like extra emoticons or bots etc.
Actually I host my own server just to store images and useful links.

Yes by free I mean Free Software like how Krita is a Free Software. I mean with matrix and IRC you can host your server on your own machine and keep your data under your own control.