Exporting *.kra to *.psd revealed severe compatibility issues when trying to open with other software (FireAlpaca and Medibang crashed)!

I still think that having at least some information about known compatibility issues is better than nothing or at least give some pointers on what to try if a problem like this arises.

Not acknowledging the fact that *.psd is being used as an exchange file standard even though it technically isn’t one doesn’t help anyone!
That’s just closing off your eyes to the reality of the given situation just because in theory it shouldn’t be a standard in the first place, but it is what it is.

At least a trouble shooting guide on what to look out for that isn’t just “use ORA, lol” would help.
Right now the extract about *.psd feels more like a non-liability clause of how Krita isn’t responsible for any compatibility issues arising from using that format.
Like this line:

For some reason, people like to use it as an interchange format, even though it is not designed for this.

Really guys?! “For some reason”?

That’s like saying “For some reason Americans are still like using the imperial system instead of the metric system”

How about including a line about how anything higher than 8bit can cause issues?
That way people can at least check if that is the problem and have a better starting point to fix a problem?
Some pointers of where to look can go a long way when desperately needing to use psd.
IMO that is better than just explaining how and why it won’t ever be 100% compatible.

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Keep cool :slight_smile:

I’m just like you, a user on this forum, I’m not from Krita’s team and I don’t speak for them.
What I said is just a personal opinion.

But rather than asking Krita to inform users about Adobe proprietary format potential problems, why not ask directly to Adobe to inform users about potential problem?
Just take a look about official Adobe communication

Photoshop format (PSD) is the default file format and the only format, besides the Large Document Format (PSB), that supports all Photoshop features. Because of the tight integration between Adobe products, other Adobe applications, such as Adobe Illustrator, Adobe InDesign, Adobe Premiere, Adobe After Effects, and Adobe GoLive, can directly import PSD files and preserve many Photoshop features. For more information, see Help for the specific Adobe applications.

As you can see, most of Adobe product can directly import PSD files and preserve many Photoshop features.
In other words, even Adobe products can’t read all PSD files properties.
For more information, see Help for the specific Adobe applications.
And Adobe ask you to read doc of (Adobe) software on which you import PSD file to determinate what is or is not compatible…

You can save 16-bits-per-channel and high dynamic range (HDR) 32-bits-per-channel images as PSD files.

Ok, that’s possible. But Adobe don’t provide any information about software that are not compatible…

My point of view is, software you use have to inform you about limitation and compatibility problem on file import.
Not to talk about potential problems when you use a format on an unknown target software (there’s hundred of software)

As I said, this is mostly because professional use Adobe Photoshop…
And for some reason people try to exchange data with a file format that is natively perfectly supported only by Adobe Photoshop by using softwares that only have a partial support of this file format (including Krita…)

Grum999

OMG so true :rofl:

However is not krita’s fault that Photoshop rigged the system in its favour and your following the crowd using psd and expecting to have a free photoshop with krita.

Proprietary does not work like that if your not in your out. It is that simple. However they can only control and limit with their own formats.

Krita can really only respond directly for its own format and give support to others as much as it can. An most open formats are standard and usable in between apps but psd is NOT one of them.

It is like complaining that photoshop sucks because it does not open kra properly. I guess they could open it but alike they would open everything in it.

Honestly your choice was a bad one for what you wanted to do. Saving in a photoshop format to send to CSP. You should always save in the normal file format for the program and with transfers consider where it is going. If you don’t know where to, it should be a open format.

I’m speaking only for 1/9 of the paid Krita team, and can only hope the rest agrees with me :stuck_out_tongue:

I think it’s a good idea to include a warning about that. Not a compatibility table - the problems with it were already discussed. But the warning that some formats on Krita’s side might support color spaces and features that might or might not be possible to open in other applications, and the things to watch out for are:

  • 16 and 32bit color depths
  • wide gamut RGB profiles (related to the one above)
  • non-RGB color spaces

There are issues even sometimes with saving a PNG. PNG can be saved in 16bit, but when you open it in some basic image viewers, the colors will be off because they don’t understand 16bit. It’s not Krita’s fault, but since the rules for what is the “dangerous zone” are quite simple, there is no reason to not include it. Krita has a very extensive color spaces support, and lots of file formats allow for non-sRGB color spaces and profiles, but a lot of programs don’t really support anything more than sRGB. Photoshop of course does support a lot because it’s a photo editing program, but there are things like Gimp or SAI still not supporting CMYK, I’m not sure if SAI support 16bit RGB at all, even. Clip Studio Paint is general higher quality so I’d assume it does support more; @torporus since you have access to CSP, can you tell me if CSP support higher bit depths or different color spaces (CMYK, GRAYA, XYZ, Lab?)

For the actual compatibility opened document in Krita → specific file format, there are warnings on saving, but they don’t warn about “are you sure the application which you want to open it in will be able to open it?”, but the user manual is a really good place for that.

Regarding PSD, Krita won’t ever be able to open PSD properly, and actually I don’t think Photoshop will even be able to read KRA properly, even if they decided to try to support it. The layer stacks are very different, there are features in Krita that don’t exist in Photoshop and vice versa, and making them compatible would defeat all the design that went into the current layer stack the specific application have. Lots of trouble for not that much gain, since most people use things that are already supported, the only troublesome thing is text (16 bit I don’t troublesome because it was the app’s fault, since Photoshop can open it fine - maybe the app can’t even support 16 bit color depths).

Ahh, I’m 98% sure about who wrote this line without even checking the logs :stuck_out_tongue: Yes, it is a bit cheeky. But note that there are formats that were supposed to be interchangeable - TIFF, for example (supports a lot of color spaces and yes, has layers), ORA and others. TIFF and ORA has public specifications. PSD support is tricky to implement not only because it includes Photoshop-specific features, but also because there is no way of knowing how it’s implemented without reverse-engineering it. There are some commercial programs out there that could have potentially buy the file format specification from Adobe, but Krita cannot do that: all Krita’s source code is open source, and I don’t think Adobe would want its format to be open sourced.

Basically, Adobe’s file format’s popularity is not something good for users, because it allows only a handful of applications to really support it. However, it still could be worse: it could be .SAI, I’ve heard it’s full of actual encryption :wink:

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This can be a broad warning. Because today the16bit files will not open tomorrow they might open due to adobe fixing their software. Do we need to constantly keep checking to update this warning? Same applies to other software do we need to purchase a legal copy of the software just to keep the warning up to date? Who knows what these software will break tomorrow.

A general warning stating that “PSD or whatever closed source format is the de facto sweetheart of people has problems and may give issues and lose data” is enough I think. As I have already linked the page that needs the warning. People can just send an MR for the manual :slight_smile:

Adobe has maligned the TIFF too it saves layers in non standard way. Krita doesn’t have a way to read layered tiff saved from photoshop yet. However it can open layered tiff saved from it self. Here is the bug report - 338470 – Support Photoshop/Adobe TIFF extensions.

1 Like

Yes, better to get this kind of message in documentation than as a warning message (really don’t want to see this kind of boring message… :sweat_smile:)

But even if application like CSP is able to open PSD, clearly application is not fully compatible with file format, so finally problem is the same…

Adding a warning about color space, color depth, gamut… not sure that will change something.

Looking adobe file format specifications (PSD file specifications are (now?) public) there’s for example 4 image block encoding possibility (RAW, RLE, ZIP, ZIP with prediction)
I don’t know which one is used by Krita, but if target software is only able to decode one of encoding type, what happens? Krita write invalid PSD file format?? Need to update documentation to tell “are your sure software is able to read PSD encoded with RAW/RLE/ZIP compression mode?” :thinking:

My point of view is, in general, people should knows limitation of software they use (professional or not) and knows what they are doing when using a specific file format.
I know that’s not the reality, but trying to anticipate all possible user’s situation in documentation might be impossible…

Grum999

2 Likes

After giving the thread a read i really don’t think it’s necessary for krita to put any warning or even adding a compatibility list of sorts. The max would be a tip like “some applications might not open psd files with 16 bit color depth”. Cause this problem looks more like a limitation of medibang/firealpaca and csp with no real relation to Krita itself.

What I was suggesting was a warning in the Krita Manual (both file formats and in User Manual - Getting Started) like “Some applications might not be able to open your file if you use a non-RGB color space, a wide gamut RGB (non-sRGB color profile) or a bit depth higher than 8-bit.” - no specified application, no specified format (I said the same problem is with PNG, or even bigger - because most image viewers can open PNG, they just ignore the fact it’s in a different bit depth or color profile, which causes all the “I saved image but it has different colors when I send it to my other computer!”). Since it has no precise information, there will be probably no reason to update it in next 5 years at least. (Even if some applications fix their problems and start supporting more color spaces, some users will still use older versions). And it does cover like 98% “compatibility issues” :wink:

4 Likes

Sounds like a good text for me. Does cover most of the problems.

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