RKWard?

Often interested to look at the appimage Next changelog, and noticed about RKWard. Have looked it up a bit, and would like to ask a bit further about it. I can see it can be used for linux and windows, and is involved with statistical computer analytics, with RKWard as a gui/ui for R language? Am seeing that R language does analytics/data mining and is also involved in machine/deep learning, big data including torch/tensorflow, and used to ID trends and make data-driven decisions.

Is this being used in a particular krita feature e.g. plugins, animation, vectors? Or is it about overall data regarding (detailed?) use of krita? Particularly if the latter, may I ask in what ways? and also about opt-in options.

(edited to correct to Next, instead of Plus)

Is this change log in the Jenkins binary factory?

I don’t think that is in any way related to Krita.
This is just a change to the binary factory tooling that gets listed there too, the binary factory just isn’t smart enough to know if changes there affect the builder you’re currently looking at.

It only is interesting to you if you were waiting for appimages of RKWard…although they don’t seem to build successfully yet xD
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/RKWard_Release_appimage-centos7/

Thanks @raghukamath and @Lynx3d for responses. Sorry first, as I said Plus … it’s the Next page, where download latest appimages, and I click through via ‘recent changes’ to see changelogs.
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Krita_Nightly_Appimage_Build/changes

Appreciate explanation, even if not fully comprehending it, lol, but if it means the appimage is being build with RKWard included, that’s what I’m wondering about.

Bumping this, as the screenshot above is real, lol, not a mirage only I can see, so someone added appimage builds and someone must be able to clarify if/how RKWard was used to build the appimage or if it’s included actively in the appimage? Both June 18th entries have the same time stamp, so it’s hard to see the entry being by accident. The entry references adding, not updating, appimage builds, which prompted me to ask about it.

From what I understand by the reply from @Lynx3d, RKWard has been added/modified as part of the KDE binary-factory environment and does not affect krita.
I’ve seen similar Change items in the past associated with build and packaging tools.
This is just me assuming things in what I think is a logical manner.

Thanks for responding @AhabGreybeard. I’ve still got a bit of confusion, partly due to not being technically minded, lol, and not understanding the build process stuff … is RKWard therefore involved with getting data regarding downloads of appimages e.g. how many downloads, platform, etc etc?

If you look up the change:

It is only a 1 line change adding 'appimage-centos7' to a yaml file, which is FOR RKWard when building. It has nothing to do with Krita.

PS R language is simply a programming language, nothing more, nothing less. And like most programming languages, it can be used for anything. An IDE/GUI doesn’t even do any compiling itself to begin with. It would have no part in building appimages.

It’s like imagine you have a printer, and someone adds a custom setting for printing things from software A. How does that impact software B? None

Thanks @KnowZero I’d tried clicking through to find out more, but couldn’t find it, despite searching a lot to find basically what RKWard does. I’m still confused, as I’m not sure why the entry would appear on the Next page if it has nothing to do with Krita or appimages. I’m trying to work out if there’s telemetry happening at any stage, basically, since kde changed to e.g. telemetry included in Kate.

EDIT: thanks for adding the printer analogy, as that definitely helps. So RKWard gets data about the ‘custom setting’ or how a build is done, in order to improve the build process? Not details about downloads of appimages etc?

RKWard is a GUI for writing R programs. Like Krita is a GUI for painting. Or in case of Kate it is a GUI for writing text and programs.

So saying RKWard is doing telemetry with R is kind of like asking if Krita can paint things by itself without an artist. (Just to be clear, not trying to ridicule you, and I apologize if my statement may seem that way, that isn’t my intention, just trying to explain it in a way that can be easier understood)

And it is backwards, the buildtools get data on how to build things for RKWard.

In general Krita and all KDE software follow this policy as far as telemetry goes:

https://community.kde.org/Policies/Telemetry_Policy

It’s still not clear tbh, and thanks for apologizing … it’s easy to understand how these things work when knowing the technical side, but I’m speaking solely from the creative and privacy side. I know that RKWard’s functions are as I described finding in the opening post (analytics/data mining, machine/deep learning, big data including torch/tensorflow, and used to ID trends and make data-driven decisions). If RKWard is the gui for writing R, then RKWard’s functions must be affecting R in some way, or logically it’d not be used. I don’t know what R does or how that impacts on Krita appimages, btw, only that R works with RKWard, which gathers statistics etc. Saying the buildtools get data on how to build things for RKWard is even more concerning.

RKWard is now on the Next page, for Krita appimages. Logically, knowing what RKWard does, that can be concerning. I’ve asked if RKWard is about the build process, and AhabGreyBeard I think is saying yes ie RKWard isn’t included IN appimages + I’ve seen that Krita states no data at all is ever collected or shared, which is great.

I’d already understood that kde started including telemetry in kate, thus stopped using kde. To my mind, the conclusion I have to draw so far is that kde is getting worse, and am not happy with builds coming via kde. As a general point, all that non-technical anti-data-collection users can do if these things continue worsening is work with softwares that don’t have such as RKWard involved in any part of the process. That would be a blunt place to end the thread, so I’ll say again that it’s great that Krita doesn’t do any data collection.

Any text editor can be used to write R, or pretty much most programming languages. It does not effect R in any way.

It is a programming language, that is generally used for statistics and analyses. But that doesn’t exactly mean it is used for telemetry. I mean telemetry by nature would simply be phoning home with data. R would have absolutely nothing to do with it. Telemetry would be in whatever language the program is written in. Now on the server side there “may” be a program to process that telemetry be it in R or any other programming language. But R itself has nothing to do with telemetry.

Okay, the build tools are things that build the appimage. They build for Krita, they build for other KDE software including for RKWard. Just like your printer prints for your software. The “for” doesn’t mean that the build tools deliver data to RKWard. It simply means that the build tools have instructions on how to build RKWard. Just like your printer gets instructions how to print stuff from all kinds of software.

Yes, it has no impact on Krita’s build process.

I think you are overall panicking too much about telemetry in general. Telemetry only poses a problem if it is opt-out or worse impossible to opt out, cause who knows where all the stuff would be. As long as it is opt-in, what difference does it make? If it is disabled by default, it will never call home. You can even test if it communicates with anything via wireshark, or simply by sandboxing it from the internet.

Overall, looking at the telemetry that kate sends (if you opt-in), it would be not much more than what would be known by you visiting any website on the internet.

@KnowZero I appreciate your continued efforts to explain these things, but I’m not panicking; simply trying to clarify why RKWard is there and what it’s doing. It’s known that data mining is getting worse all the time, including impacting on people’s lives more and more regarding decision making (which is right up RKWard’s street). Along with all that can sometimes come too much acceptance of it. I don’t accept it. I’m not dumb (trust is earned) so don’t automatically trust things e.g. regarding data collection/the things RKWard does, as I don’t believe that’s a good direction to go in, and personally that isn’t my direction. Arguments like ‘what difference does it make?’ or it being included but disabled, only add to a) my puzzlement about why it’s included at all if it’s ‘dormant’, and b) irritation that for the millionth time there’s not understanding about preferring privacy, as if anyone liking privacy is some kind of weirdo. Privacy and choice is the normal human state, and the world’s only got crazier, the less privacy and automony people take part in.

If I’m not technically minded, I’m not going to be using wireshark or sandboxing, so, again, my own choice, as a non-technical user, to instead opt out of softwares that either take data or are too complex. I’ve personally got better things to do than get into lots of tech stuff e.g. paint! … and am just not wired to do the tech stuff.

I take healthy precautions about being online. I stopped any kde telemetry, or time-consuming doubt/confusion about it, by dropping kde; problem solved. Increasingly being offline is something I’m enjoying, particularly when people seem to enjoy emphasizing that snooping happens everywhere! … I choose to make that not so, and find that makes a lot of things much simpler + more time to paint and develop offline things further. Anyways, I’ll wrap up now and get offline. Thanks for attempting to explain.

I understand your confusion because of the change being listed among the change log for Krita. Even I am a bit confused.

I think the issue is that jenkins is used by entire KDE software offerings. This change is not in the Krita repository - Commits · master · Graphics / Krita · GitLab.

I’ll ask the sysadmin on IRC about this. I am assuming it shows a change from some other project in there. This project seems to be the tooling and scripts that build the binaries - Sysadmin / Binary Factory Tooling · GitLab

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Thanks @raghukamath I knew I wasn’t making it up, lol, so am relieved it’s not just me puzzled as to why it’s there. Thanks for the links too. I’d ferreted about and not been able to find anything referenced, so it’s good to have a confirmatory link about that this isn’t a change in the Krita repo. Thanks about asking on IRC too. :slight_smile:

It is better to check the changes in the krita repository directly. Jenkins may have some quirks

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Actually, if you look here, you’ll see there is two “Summary” sections:
https://binary-factory.kde.org/job/Krita_Nightly_Appimage_Build/1666/changes#c28e8175ff2575d6235780de0965745154118655

The first on is the repo being built, the secon one the global tooling repo controlling the binary factory.

I don’t think it’s possible to automatically detect if a change in the latter affects the build you’re looking at, and since to my knowledge only sysadmins can accept changes, it is important for the project devs to know when a requested change took effect, so they need to be shown somewhere.

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@raghukamath Just to wrap things up, as I’ve also just seen 9to5’s article about 5.1 switching to xtensor/xsimd for painting, which is bsd/permissive licensing, was there any word in the IRC about why RKWard appeared in the appimage downloads page for Next versions?

I asked the sysadmin, and they said it is not related to Krita and jenkins showed the changes from other repository which is related to the tooling repository. RKward is not used in krita and there is no connection. It is just Jenkins showing wrong change log in between.If you feel that there should be more investigation about it. You can search for Rkward in the Krita repository, which I did and found nothing. And to be sure you can also build Krita yourself, I used to do it too.

I did not understand your concern about xsimd and bsd licensing. You can directly check Krita repository where you can find each commit and the code being pushed into repository. Do not refer news website or other websites for change log. Although jenkins is KDE infra it seems it has some issues.

Thanks @raghukamath for checking about things. Concerning about things randomly slotted into the wrong place like that. Already looked up in the repo about RKWard etc, and am not technical/able to build krita. Other than that, I support GPL licensing, and did look up in the repo and on krita’s 5.1 release information page after seeing the 9to5 article.