A discussion about the 'hug' point in the Code of Conduct

Recently, there have been concerns about some content of the forum’s Code of Conduct
( FAQ - Krita Artists ).
This section in particular:

Anti-Harassment Statement

This community will not tolerate harassment of any kind.

(Details block summary) Examples of harassment include:

… (list of examples, including:)
Physical contact and simulated physical contact (e.g. textual descriptions like “hug” or “back rub”) without consent or after a request to stop.

It seems that some people feel that this is far too strict and that sending a hug/hugs, either by use of the word “hug” or by using the ‘hugs’ emoji :hugs: is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

After a moderator politely (and privately) brought this item of the Code of Conduct to their attention, one user decided they didn’t want to be on the forum anymore and repeatedly demanded that all their content be removed and their account deleted. This was done, as is their right.

They demanded repeatedly because there were no moderators online at the time to reply to them.
Depending on the day of the week and the time of day, it can sometimes take hours to get a reply from a moderator.

Something to bear in mind for ‘acceptable conduct’ is that the forum has users age 13+ and from a variety of different cultural backgrounds.
The ‘cultural background’ is not only national but regional, social and personal; with possibly great variation between different people.

It seems to be an emotive issue and one that needs open discussion to decide if the point about hugs in the Code of Conduct needs any change.
That is the purpose of this topic so please give your thoughts and opinions.

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I, personally, didn’t grow up in a physically affectionate household, which is why I believe I am such a “hugger” today. I totally understand that some individuals or cultures might not feel open to hugs (even on a social media platform). Anxiety is very real and perceptions can/do vary in terms of acceptable boundaries. Covid-19 certainly brought about a higher need for personal space, and I know many of us are now starved for human contact. Keeping this all in mind, I am personally going to do better in respecting the sensitivities of others and respective platforms as a whole. :sparkles:

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I think this part of the code of conduct is perfectly respectable. I don’t see any problem with it. Even in real life, you don’t touch people without their consent if it’s not someone you’re very close to. I wouldn’t want to be hugged by someone who wasn’t family or a friend I’d known for years.

The problem is that we’re on the internet. Even if you’ve been chatting to someone for a while, we’re all hiding behind a photo and (for some like me) a fake name we’ve chosen. You don’t know who the person behind the screen is, how they feel or what their life is like. It may be someone who has had a complicated past, and the idea of a stranger touching them, even if not physically, can be more harmful than beneficial for the person receiving it.

So yes, I see that part as necessary… although the only thing I don’t really understand is: why would someone delete their account for that reason?

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It is perfectly fine. They felt that this policy is not good and and combined with lack of response at the time they got angry. So we need to make sure this policy doesn’t become reason for another such situation. If the community feels that this is too much then we need to rectify it.

The person sadly left but we need to focus on this issue at hand and come to a conclusion.

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Hi

I sometime feel the CoC is too restrictive, applied without any “moderation” from moderators.
And I perfectly understand someone that quit the forum because there’s thing that are too strict.

I often use the hugs emoji, but not here. Sad but Ok, I spent time here to help people, not to get close friends :sweat_smile:

I don’t know for which reason the user has been contacted: just used a hug emoji? or post has been flagged by another user shocked by the emoji used to them?

In the first case I can’t understand why user has been contacted if nobody complained.
In the second case, I can understand.

Also please note that if hug have to be banned for cultural reason, then following this logic, thumb up, Ok, and a lot of other emoji have to be removed too…

note: if it’s really forbidden, emoji that are not allowed should be removed from emoji panel and matching unicode characters put in blacklisted words…

Grum999

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Giving my personal opinion here. I agree with you here for me a hug is not controversial but that is because hugging friends is general where I stay. I too feel we can loosen this rule and only take action when someone complains about it.

if the user does not feel good from such emoji they can contact the moderators and we will ask the person who wrote hug to remove or edit it.

And thanks for the link of OK sign or thumbs up sign. Now I know where not to use it :slight_smile:

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I wasn’t even aware that this could be an issue and also didn’t know that the CoC had a paragraph for forbidding what basically are positive interactions under normal circumstances. I can however understand why that makes people uncomfortable. Personally I rarely use emojis because I often perceive them as used condescending and sarcastic, if not dishonest. Probably because they are used exactly in that way by a certain group of people on social media. When even the metaphorical idea of contact is too much for people, it can get really hard. I don’t even know how to really moderate that, I could think of many sentences that imply physical contact without even using exact words. If we want to keep that part of the CoC the emoji list should be adjusted accordingly, however that doesn’t prevent people from using the corresponding unicode symbols unless they get added to the list of blocked words. And the emojis can also be used in other context, for example the hugs emoji is often used to indicate comfort, not only to metaphorically hug someone. It would pretty heavily inflict the possibility of expressing oneself.

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I think the CoC wording is fine the way it is. Maybe we have to adjust the way in which it’s applied.

Some of the harassment examples in the CoC should always be censored (ethnic slurs, threats, personal comments about one’s lifestyle) while others, like the one we’re discussing today – hugs – only constitute harassment if the recipient identifies it as harassment.

I’m glad we’re discussing it. Moderating is not easy and it helps to hear others’ opinion and experiences.

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Then the wording of the point would have the existing words, “without consent or”, removed?

The user said, “I send you a big hug”.
They were sent a polite (and private) message saying “Please consider your content” then shown the stated Code of Conduct words and it was explained to them that their own cultural norms may be different from other people’s.
They reacted very badly to that message.

Personally, I would think it was creepy if anyone on the forum sent me a hug and I would be wary of them after that and less inclined to want to interact with them.

Can you give any examples of it being too restrictive and being applied without any “moderation”. Maybe in a different topic to avoid going off topic from the ‘hug’ subject?
For it being “too restrictive”, that is a matter of identifying and modifying wording if needed.
For being applied without any “moderation” then someone will have to write guidelines for the moderators and give a range of examples of how moderators should behave in different situations of different ‘severity’.

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I wouldn’t have a problem with an emoji hug because it’s just a sign of friendliness. If it was an issue for me I would, as a first thought, assume innocence on the part of the person sending it and would politely explain to them that I don’t feel comfortable with it. Only after that would I consider it harassment. To some people, it’s just a natural way for them to express perfectly innocent feelings. It is difficult though with the younger age groups and we have to be careful about that.

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I think the problem I am seeing here is that two very different cultural norms are butting up against each other, and the big problem is consent

we have norm nohugs in which giving hugs to “randos” on the internet, especially without forewarning or consent is weird and offputting that person is to be avoided at all costs because they must be some kine of creeper or something.

and we have norm hugs in which hugs are a soft comforting thing that everyone should have if they want, and not giving hugs to people you see as friends or people who are emotionally hurting means you a callous and unfeeling heel.

(lots of exaggeration on both descriptions there for illustration purposes, don’t be a nitpicker.)

neither of these types are inherently wrong or bad, but they don’t really mix all that well together.

the big issue is CONSENT, if you don’t want hugs, then people shouldn’t “force” them on you. but you also shouldn’t tell people who do like hugs that they are not allowed to give hugs to people who don’t mind.

the COC clearly says “without consent”
so… people who want to give hugs should probably say something like “hugs if you want them” or something similar.

and if they don’t or their hugs make someone uncomfortable, then that should be explained “your giving of hugs made this person uncomfortable and now they feel awkward, it’s not your fault, but please refrain from offering hugs without asking first” or something similar.

the description of the situation of the hugging person who left sounds like someone not within the conversation approached them and made them feel like they were unwelcome for wanting to hug people, irregardless of weather those hugs actually bothered the person they were giving them to, which… rude, and uncalled for unless there was an active complaint by the person to whom the hugs were directed. (I admit that we do not have the full story here, so my understanding may be flawed)

but we also can’t ignore the fact that unwanted hugs can be a weapon of a stalker or harasser and those things VERY MUCH need to be nipped in the bud and take care of in a swift and expedient manner.

it’s an awkward and fine line to walk.

there’s another side issue of the fact that there were no moderators available for quite a while after when they needed a response, it may be a good idea to get more/better moderator coverage for all time-zones. and also to discuss when approaching someone for a coc infraction is actually necessary.

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My difficulty is to formulate this topic, in a language that is a foreign language to me, in such a way that not only native English speakers understand the meaning, but also those for whom English is also a foreign language. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.


@KRITAKOUGAR and @Katamaheen have put forward very good arguments against the relaxation, although they, like me, consider the general harmlessness to be a given (this is a paraphrase). However, these very good arguments, along with those of @AhabGreybeard, are then not taken up as arguments later in the topic.

Also @sooz’s argument that the term “harassment” is rather inappropriate here is definitely correct, but what do you classify something like this under?

If you’re wondering why I’m categorizing it and what I want from you in the first place, please be patient and understanding:

The underlying problem is a different one, it exists, and it is very serious, in my opinion.

The difficulties associated with emojis or the written expression of wanting to hug someone lie in an area that is rarely grasped in its scope and seriousness by people who are not affected by it.
The underlying problem is called “post-traumatic stress disorder” and, in relation to the problem discussed here, is mainly related to sexual abuse in terms of the number of people affected worldwide. Further affected persons can be people involved in acts of war (fighting soldiers, as well as civilians in the combat zone), (political/war/criminal) prisoners, survivors of abduction, and similarly severely and most severely traumatized people.
To get an understanding of the dimension and extent of this affected group: According to a large number of studies, on average over a third of all women, and about a quarter of all men, worldwide are sexually abused at least once in their lives. Of these people, a very large proportion develop a “post-traumatic stress disorder” in the course of their lives, a mental illness that is often, but not always, successfully treatable, unfortunately, at least 5% (if not far more) are considered incurable.* & **

Now, I assume that most of us have enough empathy and imagination to be able to imagine that a sexually abused person can have a panic fear of hugs and often any other form of physical closeness. And not only of the actual physical closeness of other people, even the suggestion of it is enough to lead these people, including myself, into the most serious crises. This means that at least 400 million people on this planet are chronically affected, and if you add to this the number of people who are currently acutely ill, we are probably talking about a good eighth of the world’s population, i.e. 1 billion people.
And this does not stop at the “door” to the forum, very probably we will also have an eighth of affected users here, but for understandable reasons, only very few talk about it. Be it because they are going or have gone through hell, because they don’t want to be recognized, whatever, many have good reasons not to speak up here in this topic because it is a risk for them.

In my eyes we should discuss, if we need these emojis in an art dedicated forum, this is not a dating community:

By the way, this is an even nore offensive hugging emoji of this forum:

In terms of considering whether the CoC and access to a few emojis in this area needs to be changed, I have these suggestions:

  1. “Without consent” means that you are not allowed to send hugs at all, because just asking for consent can make the asked person feel uncomfortable. This may not be noticeable to “healthy” users, but those affected will see it very differently.

  2. I believe, some of the emojis should be removed.

  3. the layout of the CoC is flawed, as the most important points are in a hidden text block. This was probably done to make it look “neat and tidy”. However, anyone reading the text using translation software will not be able to open anything in it, and what the triangular arrows mean in the original must not necessarily have been recognized.

Is it so tragic to “lose” a few pictures and not use a few phrases when dealing with complete strangers, rather than potentially causing psychological damage to users? After all, this is not only theoretically possible.

Michelist
P.S.: Sorry, I have to sleep now, I wrote the whole night on this one, and another one to our leaders. I actually wanted to say more about this, but I hope it will be understood.

*Ask your preferred search engine

** Quote from therapie.de, translated by me: “After a traumatic event, the probability of developing PTSD is 15 to 24 percent. However, it also depends on the type of event: After war events or r.a.p.e***, the risk is 50 to 65 percent, after accidents or natural disasters it is significantly lower at 5 to 10 percent.”

***Sorry for “masking” because of the word-filter.

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When I thought about this a bit more this morning I remembered I have the same feelings when it comes to religious stuff. There were a few instances on the forum were people thanked by “sending prayers” and blessings by whichever god. And this creeped me out personally for a few reasons and it’s maybe similar, in any case it makes me able to understand.

On Mastodon there is an option to create filters with certain words or phrases so posts containing them don’t even show up for you and I make a lot of use of it. Perhaps there is a plug-in that can do something similar in Discourse. Tech can’t solve social issues but at least that gives affected people a tool to mitigate risks and moderate content on their side a bit, especially since things like this are not easy to moderate and moderators are not online 24/7.

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Here is the full story:


[Direct Message from AhabGreybeard]
Re. (Topic Title): Please consider your content

@(username) The Code of Conduct (FAQ - Krita Artists) has this to say (among other things) about posted content:

Anti-Harassment Statement

This community will not tolerate harassment of any kind.

Examples of harassment include:

  • Physical contact and simulated physical contact (e.g. textual descriptions like “hug” or “back rub”) without consent or after a request to stop.

You should bear in mind that the forum has users age 13+ from a wide variety of cultural backgrounds and that what may be acceptable in your culture may not be acceptable in their culture.

Regards
AhabGreybeard


I did my ‘moderator job’ and gave polite advice. I don’t see my actions as being in any way ‘rude’ or ‘uncalled for’.
It is a fine line to walk and this is not the first person here who has gone freaky on me after I sent a direct message politely advising them that their behaviour was against the Terms of Service or the Code of Conduct.
I can remember four others before this and to be honest I’m getting quite fed up with it.

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Hi

Ah yes I understand
I sincerely don’t want to be at your place, doing moderation is not a simple job and having to manage some users may be really difficult

I’m too lazy to search precise examples.

It’s a global feeling I have.
When reading some topics where parts of posts are replaced with censorship like [replaced by a moderator] or requests to some users that do not makes sense to me :person_shrugging:

Anyway, it’s a personal feeling, it doesn’t really matters.


If we keep focused about the hug thing, I’m still not sure to understand what happened.

For example, if someone publicly send to me a hug: is the user message will be censored, the user will get a PM warning with CoC example to not send hug, even if I don’t complain?

If yes, it’s sad :confused:

  1. I’m more shocked by religious stuff I already read here (like @Takiro said) than by hugs
    – I’m smart enough to understand someone sending prayers and other god stuff does it with kindness but I really dislike it…
  2. I’m able to request a user by myself to not hug me if I don’t want hugs
  3. May be it’s a close friend that send me hugs…
  4. If there’s really a problem with a user and for which I’m not able to solve by myself, then I’ll advice a moderator

But as I said, I still don’t know what happened here (context? user that received hug has complained? user that sent hugs already got 15 previous warnings? …?)

Concerning some young underage users, nobody knows the real age of users here, as nobody knows the nationality, gender, religion, ethnic or whatever you can consider as criteria that will define limits to not cross with your interlocutor… (It’s sometime something we can guess, but who can prove I’m really an old French user? :sweat_smile: )


I have no solution to give, I have no idea about how you can manage this.

Social Media are just being more and more weird places due to their nature: a place where people from everywhere and from different cultures don’t understand each other and don’t want to understand each other, and for what I see, people are more and more aggressive too…

CoC (for which I’m pretty sure only 0.01% of users have here already read) can gives limits in case of conflict, but should they be applied literally without taking into account the context? :person_shrugging:

Short story here: do you know that in France, until the 31st of January, 2013 (yes, 2013!!) the law prohibited women to wear pants in public place without an authorization from Police headquarters?
Hopefully, nobody was stupid enough to complain, nobody was stupid enough to apply the law.


In conclusion, just want to wish good luck to moderators for the hard work and I hope you’ll find a fair balance between the freedom speech and moderation :muscle:

Grum999

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i mean, obviously you didn’t think it was rude or uncalled for, or you wouldn’t have sent it.

BUT

yeah, to me, (and obviously that person) it was.

no one complained. and yet you still felt it necessary to chastise this person.
not only that, but you gave no good reason WHY. or any alternate way they could still tell the person they were talking to that they cared without being scolded.
how do you know that they didn’t have consent via some other communication to give each other hugs?

to quote @Grum999

For example, if someone publicly send to me a hug: is the user message will be censored, the user will get a PM warning with CoC example to not send hug, even if I don’t complain?

If yes, it’s sad :confused:

I also agree with @Michelist PTSD is a thing and a 100% valid reason to not want hugs, and to possibly have a “no hugs” policy
BUT
as of right now, the coc is written in a terrible manner and doesn’t explain why, or how people who wish to show care can do so without triggering someone.

Hell, you didn’t even mention it in your message to the hugging person, you just essentially told them, “hey hugging is against the rules… because reasons”
(a “+13 community from different cultures and backgrounds” it terrible and vague and can be used to ban pretty much everything.) and while you 100% don’t need to explain the why’s and wherefores of every rule in the COC, when contacting people for infringements it’s probably a good idea to say the yes, there is a good and well thought out reason for this, and it’s not your fault bit it can cause issues, so please don’t

you message was all negatives, which… comes off as rather, well, negative. no explanations as to WHY (that it could have caused unintentional harm) no alternatives (seek consent first, or use a different method to show care)

and worse of all to me… IT WAS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY BECAUSE THE PERSON THE HUGGER WAS TALKING TO DIDN"T COMPLAIN.

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Given that we have such a big variety of users, it’s probably best to err on the cautious side and have Terms more restrictive than permissive, even if it’s mildly annoying and would take out some of the “character” from the discussion.

Some of us (depending on the age / culture) are probably less susceptible to being offended or “creeped out” and can just gloss over any emojis, comments, or phrases. But I guess we need to protect those who can’t deal with it on their own.

Probably the “interacting” emojis are the worst offenders, like hugging or patting. Maybe we could remove them from the web UI but remember that these days you can just write emojis as regular text with your keyboard shortcuts (independent of the forum web software), so to really get rid of them, the post would need to be parsed and “sanitized” before posting (i.e. by the server).

Personally, I really dislike the trend of being overly sensitive and removing stuff that is “problematic” and “could offend someone”, but there’s probably a balance that is good for our specific community here.

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to tell you the truth, i don’t really care all that much either :sweat_smile:
but it’s needs to be set out very clearly, and yes, even if it does make things long and unwieldy and not a neat it needs to be explained why, and if possible ways that people can still express care needs to be offered.

what bothers me the most is that its so very vague and frankly to the type of person who does feel like giving hugs is a good and desirable thing, being approached out of nowhere and being told to stop in such a brusque and unfeeling seeming manner can be upsetting,

(ugh, the editing thing, i keep accidentally deleting, thank goodness for the undo feature!)

i also agree that if you don’t want people to use them, then certain emojis should not even be on offer in the menu.

(semi unrelated anecdote: my mother has no idea what most emojis mean, or are supposed to mean, or whatever, and half the time can’t really see them well enough to distinguish anyways. text messages from her look like some sort of weird emoji soup that I’m sure the typical gen z would be horrified by!)

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One thing seems clear to me. We should find an alternative emoji to show we care and get rid of the hugging and kissing ones. I tend to look at intent when people write to me so it doesn’t bother me because I assume harmless intent as a first position, but now I know about how PTSD affects people, thanks to @Michelist , I have changed my position.

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To be fair, I also don’t get some emojis and I’m a Gen Z :laughing:

At the start, I didn’t even know that the hugging emoji was a hugging one! I thought it was more close to that kind of emotion:

https://www.shutterstock.com/fr/image-photo/young-surprised-happy-woman-asian-ethnicity-2117629952

I’m sorry, I’m just putting the link, it’s Shutterstock and I didn’t find something else with a free license.