AI related meta thread

General Forums off-topic talks
68

Since I really don’t want to be AI’s advocate I’ll just answer once more (hopefully).

I love art. Creating art. With my hands. MUCH MORE than with AI. It doesn’t even compare. Also, I have tried it a bit but I DON’T create AI art, since it’s not so fulfiling to me as drawing by myself. But AI is a tool, like are knives, crutches, or a pencil, and some people only can use that to make art, and nobody should shun them for that.

The “irrelevant excuses” that I wrote about, I have experimented them myself, so I would appreciate it if you would not underestimate my efforts or call me lazy, please.

For the most time in the past I couldn’t get enough money to live, so I overworked, and injured myself so much I couldn’t even do common daily tasks (much less doing art).

I was depressed and I didn’t think I was going to be able to recover, but after much trying and trying different ways to heal my body I got a slight improvement, and do you know the first thing I thought? “This could work! I want to draw so much!” I felt like Greg Kinnear’s character in the movie “As Good as It Gets” would probably felt when he started ripping off the cast on his broken arm to start drawing things again.

I don’t consider myself a skillful artist but nonetheless I love drawing using just a pencil and paper. The problem is that I CANNOT, several injuries (and age degeneration) don’t let me draw in a desk as I always loved. But as soon as I could, I bought a cheap drawing tablet to be able to continue drawing without having to move my head down. Not being able to move my neck as before isn’t going to stop me if I can help it.

Nowadays I’m still injured (cannot move my arms correctly, and my shoulders ache a lot), but doing exercises every day to try and recover. And each time I feel discouraged, I think of being able to draw again so I get motivated again. So please, don’t say I’m just making excuses.

Writing this is also not easy to me, and I do not gain anything with it, but I love people (and hate fights), and I always like to help bring people’s points of view closer. Also, I like the Krita community and the Stable Diffusion community, they are both good people. That’s why I tried sharing what I know about this new technology in here.

I have explained different ways of using Stable Diffusion easily and without paying anything. I don’t know how that is elitist thinking and/or gate keeping. I am not saying it’s cheaper than a pencil, just that for certain people SD is more accesible. I also would like to note that some people find feasible to learn prompts and finetunning, but almost impossible to learn drawing a circle. Those people are also people, like you and me, and they also like creating art (which I think is innate to any human being).

If anything I’ve said has bothered you, I’m sorry, that wasn’t my intention. If you think I should just shut up just tell me and I will. I really only want to help here.

2 Likes
69

For sure, I am not denying that or I am not denying the use for this to anybody. Everything has a use and people can use what they love. Some people can buy a ready made ikea furniture assemble it and then might want to call themselves a carpenter, if that what gives them a joy then who are we to stop them. Even stock images are useful.

I am sorry for you and I did not mean to bring forth those memories while discussing this. I sincerely hope you get better so that you can draw on paper more.

Yes and it is only for certain people, I agree, and I say that AI people should not over exaggerate this. And tell the truth rather than selling this as some miracle drug which cures lack of artistic skills.

And why is that? You can just draw a circle with the shape tool in Krita if you drag and click :stuck_out_tongue: (Just Joking). Or just take a coin or a bangle or a compass (geometrical instrument) to draw a circle, these are tools too and surprisingly cheaper than stable diffusion google colab. Why do people want to buy into this expensive tool and say that it makes art accessible when in reality it funds stability AI and google colab or when they can buy cheaper tools like a compass to draw a circle?

it boils down to I don’t want to learn to draw mindset If you practice enough anybody can draw that is my opinion. Yes if the person has aversion to drawing then no matter what they can’t. Like some people can’t manage to learn to code, and it will be useful for them to have a software made ready with a click of a button, but does that make them a programmer? What happens when they encounter a bug in it how can they fix it when don’t know or learn to code? Similarly when AI draws mangled hands how will people fix the hands when they don’t know to draw even a circle? And it becomes like people who don’t know to draw a circle want to become artists without wanting to learn to draw even a circle :slight_smile:

I might probably be arguing a lot with you but I don’t have any ill intent against you, I am arguing in good faith. You don’t need to shut up as it is interesting to know the perspective of other people and you included. you have not said anything wrong here so I don’t find you as a bother.

4 Likes
70

Knives, crutches and a pencil are tools. If the AI could work without relying on data collected from internet (which has been collected unethically and by bypassing copyright), then it would have been a simple innocuous tool as well.

It is not a true Artificial Intelligence, in the sense it doesn’t actually understands or thinks what it creates. It is just a very complex image collage maker. It can’t ‘make’ anything new, or anything that hasn’t existed before.

If it only allowed the generated image to be for non commercial use, I think it would have been alright. With an option to compensate the artists’ whose datasets have been used, if they want it for commercial purpose.

5 Likes
71

The AI’s even have the nerve to invisibly watermark the images they come up with so that other ai’s won’t use their images.

Stable Diffusion Invisible Water Request (this is to a request to have a feature that can invisibly watermark too so that ai might respect that, but I know there’s no guarantees.)

2 Likes
72

From a technical/logical point of view, that’s very sensible and is for the benefit of all AI image generators. If they started using each other’s output images, that would be like inbreeding (or eating each other’s plop, whatever mental image you prefer).

I think the next stage will be for artist to use AI generators to make images then remove the watermark and upload the images to internet galleries. This is called “poisoning the well” and it could be automated.
They could also put a ‘generated by AI’ watermark on their own images as a form of camouflage/protection.

4 Likes
73

it make sense to avoid training on generated images.

1 Like
74

well they did say that we artists have to accept ai tools, this is malicious compliance. :grin:

I assumed the next step would be to boycott Epic games(since artstation is own by them) but your solution could work a lot faster then mine

3 Likes
75

in the 70’s we had Star Trek with Captain Kirk, who would foil AI by some ‘logic puzzle’ Now… how to we apply this to the Art AI… hehehe

4 Likes
76

if this works, I feel like artist would used the invisible/coded water mark for their future works, maybe

3 Likes
77

Why are they called AI artist when they are not creating anything themselves ? And where is the fun and magic when you know that was generated by a machine without feelings and attachment for the artwork ?
I don’t understand why it’s even a thing :joy:

3 Likes
78

Maybe those wanabe artist want that title but too scared to draw, I guess…

1 Like
79

Thanks for the clarification and sorry again for posting here, I’m not against the technology but I think it’s important to stand up against the current training methods, but I guess in this case everyone is on the same page anyway :slight_smile:

3 Likes
80

i mean no, we clearly aren’t on the same page.

i’m building free interfaces that can run ckpt files and diffusers library. go yell at the people who train it - i am not your void.

3 Likes
81

But that doesn’t entitle you to accuse someone of stealing unless you can prove it. And in this case, you are unlikely to succeed. But it’s so great to put other people in a bad light out of the supposed anonymity of the Internet. Do you feel better now?
Sorry, serious is different.
And behaving like this in this forum disqualifies you, in my opinion, to be a member of this community.
The fact, that you’ve deleted it now, doesn’t change anything on the damage done!

Michelist

1 Like
82

Keep cool, @zam_zam already apologize for that and agreed with his mistake, no need to continue discussion and to blame here: this topic is not made for that

Also reading deleted post there’s no personal charge about the plugin developer is stealing art; deleted post was more related to the “That is the larger ethical debate that I am aware of, but am no longer participating in”

@raghukamath as @zam_zam deleted his post, can you move/delete all related posts which resulted from it?

Grum999

1 Like
83

Hey, not to be a downer, but… is there any benefit from posting art online anymore?

Fact of the matter is that, with a lot of AI system engines which scrap/feed on anything art related or not. Which that is already ethically troubling.

It the harassment/belittling/gaslight that is getting to a lot of artists, including myself. Though it is easy to block people and delete their comments. I can’t help but think, if I was a child/teenager at this time; I would feel extremely helpless.

Not to mention, that a lot of helpful art advice to protect your artwork/make it harder to be scraped for AI art, is making an obnoxious watermark and smearing it all over the art before posting. That idea is fine for a single piece artwork, but not for a comic/webcomic/webtoon.

It seems easier to just draw in private; then it is, to post art on any social media app/website these days. :melting_face:

1 Like
84

That is devastating for self-taught people who look into other’s art and process through the internet (like me).
But I’m also hesitated to post my work on facebook even limited to “only view by friends” …you know, big tech also trains their own AI by media we upload to their site…I’m contradicting :upside_down_face:

1 Like
85

at this point is it even worth the trouble? damned we do, damned we don’t type of situation

2 Likes
86

Two very interesting and thought-provoking podcasts about AI & art I listened to recently:

4 Likes
87

I listened to both of them they are nice way to bridge communication and knowledge gap between two groups. But I still feel the AI development people don’t even think about artists. Like if you check the second pod-cast where the AI developer person talks, you will notice that they are in their own assumption and utopia like dream where they disregard the current position of the artists. For them this is just a side business on the way to achieve the big goal and if few artists suffer in that they don’t care. There is no empathy or any sort of sympathy towards any artist group. For them it is just exciting new tech and any communication in this scenario is in vain. For example the person talks about finding a new job or a time when everything will be free so that nobody needs to work etc. I am sure this is way way far away in future and this type of delusional utopia is not going to happen any-time soon. It is too privileged thought process made by someone sitting in a air conditioned room disregarding millions of millions of people in developing world and the fact that they don’t have anything to eat right now.

8 Likes