Remember that this is not generative AI, it is not like copainter.
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on the topic of āoh no intelā, it may be worth noting that they have previously added ai to another open-source project, in the form of plugins for Audacity that were officially promoted by the project, including an integration for prompt-based music generation
Hello, had to join to add my voice to those joining to post about something that matters a lot. Thorny subject, but have taken time to consider how to post points as reasonably as I can.
Used to be on the forum, most recently last year: left because of the unpleasant response to expressing ai concerns. Now everyoneās talking about it, and a big momentum against it is growing. I can show art-making doing digitally offline, but only in collage format (once image postingās unlocked), as I wonāt post full artworks online at this point. Only referencing this as see people attempting to discredit, if thereās no art viewable.
In the background (kimageshop) the pre-amble to introducing ai linework was saying itās the less talented artists that will want this feature, and that itās very risky to bring in ai as people donāt like it so must make it āpalatableā when announce it. Iāve switched back to Paintstorm already, and it is a joy, not only due to no ai but because itās a great painting-focussed balance between Sai2 and krita. Being off the beaten track is also a great bonus, albeit with a Notes pdf able to be found; itās so nice to get that presence and space back, be offline, and enjoy being in a software thatās not about online/ai/data.
Nutshell, from honest observations: anyone pro-ai seems to want likes/attention and/or money (with minimal effort), and resent those with talent and who apply themselves thus get results. Also, people seem to buy into that the pro-ai community is large; it isnāt. Big tech and media push it as if it is, so some go āoh well, will have to accept it and join inā. Donāt fall for it. Kudos to anyone anti-ai ā¦ that IS the majority e.g. recently Cara had 800k join in just 2 weeks, standing as a 100% anti-ai platform that protects artistās works. Iām not on there, as prefer offline, but read some great discussions and have found lots of new genuine artists, which is uplifting.
Why is krita not instead including something similar to glaze/nightshade? Why not pin a post about e.g. legal actions AAA artists are taking against ai? Why not ban the ai plugin? Why was this ai linework not proposed as a plugin and shot down then, rather than announcing it when itās nearly ready and soon to be fully included into krita, potentially cutting many users (real artists) out of krita? Also bending licensing ā¦ the art world are fighting securing pro-artist licensing, but krita wants to modify licenses to INCLUDE ai ā¦ this also degrades creative commons licensing. And not banning ai means most people will presume ANY art done in krita contains ai, thus real art gets dismissed in with that ā¦ does krita care about that? (no) Try searching krita videos in the last month; too many ai references.
And people often say thereās a lot in kritaās base that needs fixing and simplifying, yet this ai linework is put at high priority, despite that it would block people developing hand/eye co-ordination and thus block progress in art.
Only non-ai has a future with the wider community, who, as krita knows, donāt want ai art ā¦ or books/movies ā¦ or customer service/shops etc, for that matter. People are discovering they enjoy real art far more than before though, and traditional art is expanding again. Cara coming through is a really good sign, as are other places that outright ban ai.
Just a special note also, to those who suddenly realised the disabled exist in this thread but only to back up their pro-ai arguments ā¦ the disabled also do not want this ai, and have a brighter day due to being able to achieve something real themselves artistically. Why not put focus on further helping the disabled to enjoy making real art, instead of ai? Also, referencing wrist issues, which may be being used as a pro-ai argument also? ā¦ proper attention to right posture will definitely help to prevent pain.
Audacity was just about universally villified for adding in telemetry, across linux anyway, and forks created/pre-telemetry versions often used since, just to reference heckoās comment above.
Also seeing comment that KDE can be trusted ā¦ they run telemetry even in Kate, their text document software. KDE telemetry is well-known and generally disliked if privacy is valued ā¦ thankfully some distros remove kuserfeedback. Krita just shifted their structure more over to KDE. I also saw openvino referenced for possible inclusion in this ai linework; that is pro-telemetry too ā¦ first result when looked up openvino. Had to join in years back arguing against telemetry on brushes use in krita; thankfully that proposal was dropped then, but the current ai issue could end up worse.
One of the many examples why ai in krita WILL get worse unless people act strongly against it ā¦ āI donāt think weāre going to have the feature of retraining the network in Krita - at least itās not planned now.ā ā¦ not until intel suggest doing something ai again and send cash, at least. What an unpleasant way to pollute the only proper painting software on linux, which countless linuxers helped get off the ground for years. Not even effort now to emphasize including linux-friendly links in posts.
Only being fully anti-ai can take care of valuable matters such as genuine art development, employment/careers, continued access to all kinds of places/communication/support/information, privacy and many other things ā¦ the same as only genuine work, time and care will produce slow and rewarding progress through experiencing doing real art, a day at a time.
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First and foremost, to assure people here please note that krita is open source. If the current team does something that you do not like then you or group of users can fork the project and remove the features. It is one of the safeguards that krita has. It is not like some proprietary closed source app where the decision is forced into users.
Also please try to listen to people before getting paranoid and getting on the hype train. Be calm and respectful while replying. Do not attack someone personally. Nowadays it has become common to brigade and cancel things.
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Well. You got vector line tools in Adobe Illustrator and Affinity Designer that allow allow you to not even have manual skills. You can take time to adjust the curvature and thickness of every line after you draw it.
And also you mentioned good lineart. Itās experimental feature at the moment but I think the Fast Line Art tool will require lots of adjustments afterwards. It doesnāt seem that dramatic automation in comparison to doing whole full color illustration from scratch that Generative AI gives you. Personally I will rather not use it because I like doing the inking.
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Because it is closed source, only runs on windows, takes a lot of computing power is not proven to actually work and most importantly no one is funding it (sadly).
It is banned on this forum but Kritaās open Source License does not allow to forbid people making whatever they want for Krita as a plug-in.
Maybe you have some information everyone else does not but as far as it is now it is neither nearly ready nor does has work entered the prototype stage.
The only modification that was made is that for the voluntary submitted artworks the BY restriction is lifted for Krita and Krita foundation when used for the tool nothing else. This is even a permissible modification according to the Creative Commons wiki. Kritaās license will stay the same as it always was.
This is a concern that I also share. People have hard time understanding the difference in āAIā (this feature doesnāt even deserve to be called AI in my opinion since it is barely sophisticated enough). It already happens because of the third party Diffusion plug-in and I hate it so much. Suddenly people see AI everywhere even when itās just simply a normal artist mistake.
Iām very much anti AI, however this tool as it is proposed now (canāt know how it is going to end) is still barely on the tool site of things for me. I still have to do all the creative stuff. Line art in my artworks are basically just means to an end, it is not an integral part of my art, I donāt have an expressive line-work style. Funnily I hated drawing line art so much that I switched from drawing to painting so I can skip the (for me tedious, I know other people love doing it) line art part altogether and go from sketching and concept drawing (the fun part for me) to coloring and rendering (the other fun part for me).
And know you can tell me that Iām not good as an artist because I donāt do line art (at all most of the time). Iām used to hear it. I could imagine actually using this tool some times, especially when I know that the model was trained on works provided by volunteers from the Krita community.
I also can understand the argument of ādeskillingā a bit. But we should not forget that not all artists like the same parts of the art creation process. It makes me think of my old art teacher that dismissed anything not made in oil or marble as not real art (yes I hated that teacher) and also took my rulers away, made fun of my copic marker drawings because it is too easy. That does not automatically make them bad artists, I believe. Fast line art will not suddenly automate an artist away, it still requires a lot of skill to even get to the point where it is useful.
Honestly at the end Iām very torn by this. On the one hand I like the idea of the tool because it makes something easier that I hate to do, and that is not really important to me personally in my works. Iām currently not even sure if the tool could give a good enough result anyway. On the other hand I am very skeptical about anything remotely connected with āAIā, I say this as a artist and as a developer. The transparency about the used art and the proposal, the fact that everything is public and community driven, the scale (or the lack of it) are probably the reasons why I donāt outright dismiss it.
But Iām also concerned about the precedence it could set, if it could open the door for more, actual generative AI.
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Ok I am trying to understand your point of view, but I stopped midway to read it all, because I read that multiple times alreadyā¦
Do you know, that there is a pattern reader when you send a letter? It searches for the addresses you wrote per hand onto your letter. Deciphers it an returns the correct address. I suppose many jobs where lost, when the was invented and implementedā¦ but I donāt hear anyone to be sad about it, Why? Because it was a tedious task! It was repetitive. It was just terrible.
This linetool is exactly the same it looks at the sketchlines and interprets it and returns a line. There is nothing generative in that. Ok you have a trained model behind that, so that the lines are more accurate, but you still have to have those sketchlines, without them this tool does not work.
But if someone has malicious intend takes sketches, which where posted online and finsihes it with krita and posts that as theirs. You can be sure, that the art community will call them out. It is already happening when you trace an image.
People are also using krita to trace! OMG! Uninstalled I donāt work with software, which is used to trace!
Come onā¦ really? Krita is accessible to all. And this fast line art-tool is a tool, which make lineart easier and faster, but it will not replace the understanding of linart. It will also not be possible to say, āplease make line art in the style ofā¦ā No, it will take the sketchlines. Put default lines on top of it. Nothing less, nothing more. You as an artist will have to complete the lineart, that will not change.
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If I were your client I would want to know youāre taking this kind of shortcut, so at the very least please consider disclosing it to your customers.
in addition to the closedĀ·source-ness mentioned above, as far as i know glaze and nightshade require the stable diffusion model to run the adversarial attack against, and downloading a legally-fraught binary blob sounds not great for an open-source project
i guess it could be an api integration with WebGlaze or something? not sure how much sense that would make
Does not make any sense. The client pays for the final product not for the process. How it was made is irrelevant, as long es it doesnāt infringe copyright. If I knew how it is made I would have done so myself as a client.
If this were true, companies like Wizards of the Coast would not have released this statement.
Not to mention that sometimes clients are just privates that care about art and donāt intend to sell the commission. I donāt understand how youād go as far as to say that it doesnāt make any sense: why keep making art for clients when genAI exists then? Just generate stuff and fix it. Or maybe there is something more to art?
For a few customers it may be important that this will not be used, but these customers usually say things like this in the negotiations, so there should arise no issue, but most donāt care, at least if it is not a picture from an AI-Generator, and exactly this, an AI-Generator, this tool is not.
Unfortunately, I have the strong feeling that a few writers in this topic have not read it from the beginning on, furthermore I feel, that some postings are only based on feelings, but not on understanding the technology used. Additionally, it seems that some were heated outside this forum and ājump on the busā to cool their heat in this topic, but also have neither read nor understood the whole topic, that makes me feel sad.
Why not get back to funded facts, instead of heated debates leading to nothing?
Michelist
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Okay this needs some cleaning up. I am going to create a break out topic and move all the there. Please use the new topic to discuss and debate the inclusion of this feature
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Krita went from being anti-AI to accepting money and developing an AI-assist tool. That is a fact stated in the very first post. I genuinely donāt understand why people minimize that. Itās a huge slippery slope. They also state that they donāt plan to use generative AIā¦ for the foreseeable future. Huge red flag. Maybe nothing else happens but from now on Iāll unfortunately have to be very cautious about further developments with the program.
Another thing I donāt understand is so many people disparaging doing
lineart, like it was some useless or pointless thing no one should waste time on. Itās like saying that painting is pointless and time consuming and why should I waste time on it when I can use another ātoolā to do it for me? I can only imagine the reaction statements like these would get from comics best inkersā¦
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I am creating this topic to collate all the discussion related to inclusion of Fast line art feature mentioned here - Introducing a New Project: Fast Line Art
This is to keep the original thread clean and on topic. We can discuss the merrits and demerits of the feature itself here in this new topic
I am also pinging @tiar so that she knows the feedback
Thank you.
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I think this type of reaction is expected from the community. I think most people are over reacting and thinking Krita like some kind of closed source proprietary app where features are forced on to the users.
Please please go read about free and open source software first. Also understand that people or user communities can fork krita and literally remove this or any feature they think is harmful and redistribute Krita. You can also inspect Kritaās code to see if it is doing anything harmful.
The artwork used in this feature will be ethically sourced from the artists who are willing to donate the artworks.
Regarding not implementing things because someone might use it maliciously, well a knife is harmful and can be used for murder, but do we ban production of knife altogether, what about a car it can be used by thieves to transport illegal things do we ban production of cars. this is not a logical point to make. if you can suggest any safeguards to prevent misuse of this feature then you can do so.
Also please be civil when discussing things. Yes this is an emotional topic and things get heated in the debate. But it doesnāt have to be either black or white. The feature will not be made by stealing images from the web. The feature will not be like generative AI. So the moment you se AI word there is no need to go in full on internet activist mode and bring on the pitchforks and call for canceling things.
If you feel that this feature is not suitable for Krita, fair enough you can make the point peacefully like a civilized person at the same time listening to what others have to say.
Also keep in mind most of us here are volunteers. Even some developers are volunteers we contribute to the project in their free time. So it might take time to reply
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I would argue itās almost impossible to keep feelings outside of this conversation considering the unprecedented levels of exploitation artists are currently having to endure, some of us landed here because weāre sick of Adobe going all in on genAI, and also while I have stated repeatedly that I know this is not technically genAI I want to stress that it is still going in the same direction: itās automating lineart. Iām glad itās asking for consent for the training data at the very least, but why stop at automating lineart when you could automate colors and painting next? At what point do you draw the line? Thereās nothing inherently wrong with all this if itās done ethically but still, I feel extremely disappointed after this tweet.
Thatās it, I will stop wasting your time, I just glad that I can hope for a fork that will get rid of these features in the future. Still, thanks for all the work youāve done so far, I didnāt mean to offend the devs as I know their intents are not malicious.
If I pay for a piece that is just line work than I would rather have the artist have done it themselves. If the line art is just a tiny fraction of the whole piece I probably donāt care that much.
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In addition to these tools fundamentally allowing others to dictate what constitutes the ātediousā aspects of work, they risk:
- Devaluing the artistic process.
- Contributing to an overall decline in the value of the field by increasing pressure to produce more under unrealistic expectations.
- Training clients to believe that turnaround times should be shorter.
- Justifying expedited production, leading to a race to the bottom that favors existing exploitative models and services.
- Increasing market pressure to rely on time-saving measures that undermine skill and devalue labor.
What measures are in place to ensure that anyone and their grandma cannot submit the work of others as ādonated artā for use in this tool?
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In my opinion, I can only see myself using this to speed up concept to some extent. I am fine without it regardless. I have a habit of tracing over sketch layer already.
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