Feedback about the inclusion of New Fast line art feature

General Forums
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If Intel would come up and offer money for developing auto color feature Krita team would probably do it.

But similar like with Auto Lines they would use Non Generative and outdated AI scripts plus opt in learning algorithm with will result in very poor performance of developed AI system.

I dont think those systems will be usefull to anyone but already causing alot of grief for people that are actually passionate about art and Lineart >_>
Those systems wont work well by desing.

Its baffling that people needing to defend lineart as Art form that requires skill on Art Forum…

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Yes, those artists really are on a “high horse” and being snooty if they said that. You’re defining “artist” in the way that you understand it for yourself, but there are far more types of artists than you seem to acknowledge exist, and some don’t want to deal with certain aspects of creating a piece of art because their art is about other aspects of it. Any tool that helps an artist create their vision (without outright stealing from other artists, like GenAI does) is a good thing, in my eyes, and this kind of gate-keeping as to what “real artists” are is not helpful to anyone.

Also, shading tools exist already, in many pieces of software, and are far more sophisticated than your hypothetical, and they can be quite handy when making art, especially art for computer games.

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Hello Artist that dont use lineart here because I love to paint.

If i dont use lineart why I need tool that messes up my drawing using its interpretation just to paint over everything and put my lines over it?

You know who will use this tool young artists that dont know better and will be pipelined into using this tool and wonder why they dont improove.

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Because the dev team can’t possibly have discussed it among themselves before deciding to take on this project. All it takes is someone throwing money at them and they’ll do anything no questions asked.

Or do you have privileged insight on how the team works you’d like to share with us?

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A lot of mangaka and comics authors have or had assistants.

Hergé had 2; Akira Toriyama had 2; Yukito Kishiro have 1; Eiichiro Oda have 5; I’m too lazy to continue the list, it could takes hours and hours to write it, but that’s nothing unusual in world of comics.

For these assistants, role is to draw backgrounds, landscapes, buildings, vehicles, doing flat colors, lights & shadows… the stuff the author don’t have the time or the ability to do himself.

But nobody tells anything because these assistants are invisible humans that’s does the work for the artist :slight_smile:

So from my point of view, having a virtual assistant or a human that helps you to do a part of the boring job, what’s the difference ? :person_shrugging:

From whom will use the tool, the laziest will probably just get the result “as this”, the other will rework the result to get something more personal I suppose.

Also I’m not an artist.
Clearly for what I read here about what a “real” artist should be, it’s an evidence I’m probably more than an impostor because I’m cheating a lot: currently to draw a line art artwork, I need stabilizers because I’m shaky, I need a brush not so reactive to pressure because I can’t manage a proper pressure along the line, I often use need spline assistants… I also need to use masks, multiples layers, undo erasers, to be able to draw something really clean… also I need model and I sometime over draw a 3D model… yeah, I’ll never reach the level of true artists.

I’ll probably never use the sketch to line art tool because I’m a little bit m@sochist and I’ll continue to suffer to be able to draw a line, but I do it for myself, not because I consider that how an artist should work… And may be when I’ll be to shaky to continue then I’ll look at this tool as something that I can use.

Grum999

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166

eh. when people jump on one remark and completely ignore theme of post >_>

I never said they didnt together came to conclusion its a good deal. (I dont blame them its a hard world we live in) to pick up this very loaded task.

And oh boy they may "probably’ do it again. Because its about making art for everyone even those that dont want to draw lineart.
So question is Where you draw the line? At auto coloring? Cool i would draw line at Auto Lineart.

Damn This being funded from Intel is the best thing about this project.

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If it had been funded by me, would the tool have been seen differently?
:thinking:

Grum999

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:face_with_raised_eyebrow: no
It still would be outside funded project like youtuber taking sponsorship for shady mobile game xD

People may frown but were happy for someone getting moneys.

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So no need to insist on the “Intel” thing since it is not so much the sponsor itself that seems to be a problem, but simply the fact there’s a sponsor for the tool :slight_smile:

Grum999

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Could be used to use the fill tool more efficiently. Sketch, lineart, fill. Hide lineart. Start rendering.
Or in Animation sketch the frames do the lineart as template to see if the movement feel correct.
Or as starting point to see if the sketch feels right. Sketch a part do the lineart, does not feel right iterate.

I could go on if I wanted to maybe you get the idea.

That is a feature you have to actively use. It will not be used without you using it.

Wow you are not using lineart. Does that mean you don’t improve? I don’t think so.

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Because omniscience is the thread tying your arguments.

You’re very confident about your notions of how the devs think and what they’d do.
You’ve stated that it’s a useless feature for people doing lineart as if you were looking over the shoulder of every artist doing lineart in the world.
You’ve told people to shut up because they don’t do lineart, which, save for people who said as much, you have no means to know.

You also didn’t bother engaging with people. Rather than considering their arguments on their merits you’ve aggressively dismissed them when they disagreed with you. You use how you work as an argument, which you present as an open-and-shut case of how everyone else works as well, when how people work shouldn’t be up for discussion at all.

You didn’t come here to discuss anything, you came here to twist arms.

And you expect to be listened to? When you don’t extend the same courtesy to anyone disagreeing?

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I’m constantly surprised by the Ableism and Classism rampant in the anti tool comments.

I guess people with Parkinsons or other similar tremor disorders aren’t real artists, or people who need to do digital art to get anywhere but can’t yet afford a tablet and therefore need assistance with lines aren’t real artists, or people who are drones for a big company and need that art for work FAST. etc etc.

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The thread is now on slow mode.

It’s okay to disagree (and it’s even good) but let’s keep the comments focused on tool feedback.

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This is a strawman. No one is saying you can’t improve art without drawing lineart. What we are saying is that you can’t improve your lineart without drawing lineart. If you have an example in which using this tool will help users improve their manual lineart then by all means.

No, we’re saying it because we are the artists doing lineart. You’re the one deciding not to listen to us lineart artists because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

No one’s said this. In fact the artist you’re replying to is literally a primarily painting artist. We’re saying that stating some artists don’t use lineart is not evidence of the need for a lineart tool.

The arguments presented so far have little to no merits. All I’ve heard so far as argument against my position is namecalling, which believe it or not, lacks merit and value.

I’ve literally heard this same argument from pro-generative-AI peeps arguing that just because I spend hours on a drawing doesn’t mean they can’t spend 3 seconds on one and it still be art. Find a better argument or build a better logical foundation for your current one.

We came here to discuss things, but the second we talk we get called names.

Case in point.

Here’s an argument for your kind. I think you’re ableist. What’s wrong with the squiggly lines parkinsons artists draw? Why do you want to ‘fix’ people with disabilities by automating their art? I think it gives humanity and life to their drawings. You want to erase what makes them and their art special. That sounds ablest to me. What, you see their lineart as a problem needing to be solved? That’s low man.

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Very indepth and negative overview of my posting.

Personally I feel like you attacking me now as person while I try to defended point from my point of view.

Everything you said about me may be said about other side of this argument. Really.
Interesting i have already few back and forward but only you now have this very strong feelings how “agressive I am”.

“You didn’t come here to discuss anything, you came here to twist arms.” And youre here to put words in my mouth? Because you know so much better.

I can look past someone being heated in conversation but you would derail whole topic just paint someone that you dont agree with as agressive freak that is not worth listening too.

Well played.

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I don’t think it was one :thinking: The user him/herself said that he/she does not use lineart in her/his art. And then said new users would be pipelined to use this tool and never improve. But improvement is subjective. And I did not unterstood that point as improving lineart but art in general. Correct me if I am wrong.

How you improve lineart using a lineart tool? Easy. You sketch and draw your line. Then you let the lines generate. Now you compare your lines with the generated ones. If your lines are better you keep them. If they don’t look like how you envisioned them, but the generated ones are better, you fix your lines. Immediate feedback loop. Immediate learning and improvement over time.

It is not the tool, but how you use it.

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I really wonder some of ya’ll are arguing against this feature because it’s neural network based or because it’s an automation of a certain painting process.

Let’s say it does the same exact thing but as a traditional filter(such as current Auto Contrast or Edge Detection in krita). Would you still oppose it?

There are all kinds of diverse artists who already utilize all kinds of automated actions in their workflow(There’s even a section that you can sell&buy Auto Actions in CSP marketplace). And there are plenty of artists who would kill to automate laborious parts of their workflow, webtoon artists in korea(where I’m based on) are the most obvious examples where they have to pull off 70~80 colored cuts per every week, risking their wrists and health.

Fundamentally, if the ‘Automation’ means executing a prepackaged set of actions for a certain part of the workflow, even brush presets are automations. I don’t think there is a crystal clear definition or a line that can seperate it from whatever you think is evil. (Which is probably why this suddenly-emerged bull***t debate of ‘what a true artist is’ around AI topic is still going on for so long in the art community)

My point being: Just be honest and say you’re against the usage of neural network if you want to oppose this feature. To impose moral superiority to certain types of artists/arts(and more importantly, certain types of humans) is extremely disingenuous and getting this discussion nowhere. Because there is no such thing, no matter how much you want to find the clear definition of it.

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I mean, I guess technically? If you draw purely for yourself then yeah you can spend 10 years without learning anything new and be happy. And if you can do that, more power to you.
But if you’re one of those greedy artists what want an art job, or fans, or money, or to feel nice about learning something new, then improvement is very much not subjective and is very much measurable.

This cannot lead to improvement, because the tool will never generate better lines. It says so in the specifications for the tool. What you’re describing is better accomplished with generative AI:

But I’m glad we’ve caught you up to why we felt the tool was pointless for lineart to begin with.

Can’t speak for others but I couldn’t care less that it uses some small ethically sourced neural net. I do think that could have some great uses in other areas. I’m arguing purely from an artistic integrity standpoint.

As I’ve said before, this tool is comparable to Adobe’s Livetrace in Illustrator. Which I’ve been using for over a decade. I’ll restate my position again because I felt it got marred and misconstrued throughout the discussion:

I am not against the tool. I am against the dev time being spent on it when it could be spent elsewhere. If Intel threw enough money to hire an entirely new dev, I’d be much less opposed but for some reason I doubt it.
I’m less annoyed the tool is being implemented or how it is, and more annoyed at all the other tools that are used arguably ten thousand times more being neglected in its wake.

If I had to go into even more detail as to why I’m indignant about it, I see it as a clear decision to prioritize corporate donations over artist donations.
“But artists don’t donate as much”
Yeah because the app is missing a lot of quality of life tweaks that scare away professional artists. The reason Intel is willing to donate so much and artists aren’t is because Intel hasn’t actually used the program. They just want a tax write-off with the added benefit of pushing whatever hardware or agenda they like.

And then the cherry on top is all the people thinking this is going to do anything other than mildly clean up their already cleaned up ‘sketch’. I was even willing to donate several pieces of my own for the training, but they’d get declined because they’re ‘too messy’
?? What do you think a sketch is? Do you not expect a Loomis head in the sketch? Cylinders for the arms? Boxes on the pelvis?
The example provided in the main thread shows construction lines but we’re not going to train on them? The whole thing is a mess created by Intel.

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here’s an argument for YOUR kind: I am a person with a tremor and I don’t WANT squiggly lines, because that’s not what my vision, my style is. line art in and of itself is a very minor yet necessary component of my art, that i have been dealing with in a very painstaking a laborious manner to compensate for my tremor, which severely slows down and hampers my process and is very discouraging, and i find it very offensive that I must produce nothing but inferior to me inspo porn squiggly line drawings to preserve your “pruity” of art ideal

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I have to agree here and I think this is my main concern related to this effort.

The tool has a chance to be useful and speed up the process for some artists. This is good. Likewise I’m not mad that this is the chosen subject, because it was probably a take it or leave it situation. However, I’m worried about the opportunity cost.

Given that there’s a contract, the team will be obligated to fulfill it, and with how small the core team is, it’s possible that this could take away the development time from important things. For example, that annoying Qt6 transition, which is a blocker to future enhancements in Krita.

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