I'm here to ask for help with drawing from someone more experienced šŸ™

Hello everyone!

If you, among the more experienced artists, could offer me some suggestions and advice, I’d be very grateful.

Most likely, it’s my way of working that’s wrong, and that’s why I’m here asking for help.

I’ll start by saying that I’ve never attended art school in the true sense of the word. Rather, I studied art history and drawing (especially technical drawing) in high school, having attended a school for advertising graphics.

At university, I attended the Academy of Fine Arts, majoring in Graphic Design and Multimedia. It was during those years at university that I developed a passion for drawing, having taken a painting course for an exam.

I took a few paid drawing courses, but the lessons were 2 hour a week for 6 months, and in the end, you learn just the right amount.

So I tried to improve by purchasing many books on drawing; especially on artistic anatomy, on the construction methods of the human figure and its component parts with correct proportions.

I apply myself a lot both in practice and in study (time permitting with work), but when I get home from work I dedicate at least two hours almost every evening to study and practice.

I recently purchased a book on perspective, but as I’ve often found in almost all the textbooks I’ve purchased over time, it always talks about static elements.

The problem is when you want to translate these notions into figures, animals, or objects in motion and with different perspectives, from the simplest to the most complex.

One-point, two-point, or three-point perspective applied to a geometric shape is quite simple to understand and apply.

But applying it to a complex, perhaps moving, object like a human body is a whole different story.

The only way I’ve found to improve in this area is to look for reference images with complex movements and reproduce them. So far, I’m doing it pretty well.

Obviously, I still have a lot of difficulty with very difficult poses, and I’m continuing to practice. But sometimes I feel like all this drawing/study training isn’t leading to any noticeable improvements.

I’m still constrained by the need for a reference image to achieve what I have in mind. I’d like to free myself from this constraint and try to be 100% independent when it comes to posing and representing the figure in every position.

As well as being able to represent a face from my imagination that’s convincing. I’ve tried over time to create some faces and figures from my imagination, but they come out too artificial.

I repeat, as far as reproducing what I observe is concerned, I’ve improved quite a bit. Obviously, I still have a lot to learn in this regard, too, and I’m perfectly aware of that.

But sometimes I don’t want to necessarily reproduce something that’s completely identical to what I observe.

For example, I’d like to create a face that doesn’t necessarily resemble the one in the reference image.

As I explained at the beginning, I know how to build an eye, a nose, and the rules for building a face. But I’d like to understand how to train that part of the drawing so that one day I’ll be able to create a believable face, without any references, from my imagination.

I’ve sometimes trained on poses and representations without references, therefore from my imagination, but I see that the difference is very noticeable compared to when you have references. The figures sometimes seem unnatural, and even the features and expressions aren’t convincing. That’s why I’m here asking those who have reached this level how they can try to improve in this area.

Thanks to anyone who can give me advice.

:folded_hands::slightly_smiling_face:

Artistically I can’t give you advice, your abilities are far above mine, but I want to share my point of view on this matter with you.

Some need references, and I don’t see it as an issue. That is because not everyone has a (near-)photographic memory and not every artist can rebuild/create the missing memory information out of experience. So what?
It may be because of my way to see the things in life, that I don’t see it as problematic. For me, it won’t be an issue, if I would be dependent on references I would use them. And because most do, but many don’t talk about or let you notice that they do, I wouldn’t have bad feelings about it.
Once I saw someone who made a time-lapse recording, and you couldn’t see any reference pictures in that recording, it was a stunning video. And sometimes later, I saw that same person talking in another video about art and showing their workspace and setup and so on. Funnily, there you could see big format pictures hanging on the walls all around the working place which very well represented the reference(s) not shown in the video. I won’t say that was deliberate, I would never call it cheating, but there you can see that not all you get shown must be the full picture, and that is normal.
There are far fewer artists who can do what you want to be able doing, as you perhaps believe. And I don’t think that is a big deal for most of them, it simply is what it is, the usual way of life.

It honors you, that you want to achieve that way to work, but it may be that you belong to those who always will be dependent on references. Don’t feel sad about it, that is nothing bad or evil, simply make the best out of it. I enjoy seeing your works, and therefore I have downloaded each of them so far.

Michelist

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Ciao CristianPerezArtist,

Before answering your questions, strictly from my own personal perspective, I think we first need to bring a bit of clarity to the discussion.

First and foremost, I believe it’s necessary to clarify which field you intend to focus on in the future: illustration? comics? animation? concept art? advertising graphics? painting?
While it’s true that these specializations share many common aspects, it’s equally true that each requires deeply different knowledge and approaches. Talking about art in general doesn’t make much sense and only leads to confusion.
Unless this point is clarified first, it becomes difficult for anyone wishing to help to offer valid advice. An illustrator might give you useful tips for their field that would only be partially applicable if you decided to specialize in animation or comics. Likewise, certain fundamental suggestions in comics would be completely out of place in a purely painterly context. Hence the need to clearly state the field in which you plan to operate.

That being said, I agree with what Michelist wrote regarding the use of photographic references. Having studied art history, you know well that in the past every painter used live models to create their work. Centuries later, with the advent of photography, many artists (both painters and illustrators) began to rely more and more on photographic references, which were more practical and affordable than hiring live models. Many of them (take the great Norman Rockwell, for instance) went so far as to set up proper photo studios in their ateliers where they produced the exact references they needed. Methods like Loomis’s were born with the precise intent of allowing artists to copy subjects more quickly, giving them a realistic look that fit the style of the era.

The idea that using a photographic reference is unprofessional or even dishonest is merely a misconception. As mentioned earlier, it overlooks the fact that reference models have existed throughout art history. True, masters like Michelangelo or Leonardo might have dared to draw from imagination, but remember that they studied anatomy firsthand—dissecting corpses and drawing bodies relentlessly. Today we know about muscle memory: by performing the same operations repeatedly, an artist eventually learns to reproduce subjects without needing a physical model nearby. This is what happens, for example, at comic conventions, where you see artists creating pieces from scratch as if by magic. In reality, there is no mystery or magical talent: what you’re seeing is a subject that has been drawn thousands of times, to the point where the artist could draw it blindfolded.
There are, of course, special talents like Stephen Wiltshire or the late Kim Jung Gi, who could create immense works purely through incredible photographic memory, but these are exceptional cases, not the norm.

We also need to distinguish between ā€˜using a reference’ and ā€˜copying a reference.’ They are not the same thing. An illustrator doesn’t use a reference to make an exact copy, but rather to understand how to construct their subject convincingly. The same applies to a comic artist. Naturally, if you accept a portrait commission, the situation changes: someone asking for a portrait wants to recognize themselves in your work. Yet even then, it doesn’t mean the client expects a photorealistic reproduction. Many painters are known for their distinct personal style of portraiture, and people commission them precisely for that originality.

As you can see, there are many possibilities, and everything depends on what you intend to do.

Knowing theory is important, but ultimately the artist’s personality must take over, bending technique to create a personal style and form of expression. This aspect, too, is closely tied to your chosen specialization. A painter approaches this problem differently than an illustrator or a comic artist would. There is no single method or answer that fits everyone. That’s why the first step is to ask yourself: what do I want to specialize in? And only then look for the answers best suited to that choice.

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I also need references, otherwise, my attempts come out looking as if drawn by an 8 year old.
Now-a-days, I’ve found a mannequin app that I use (Magic Poser) as well as photos that I’ve taken myself. I position them as I want them in a sketch as placeholders, then find the appropriate references. That’s how I work.

A looong time ago, I was able to reproduce from memory a drawing that I had done from a reference the day before. But now I find that harder for me (memory not what it used to be).

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Hi, first I would recommend thinking about that when your cartoon studies are perfect copies, and when your life model and photo studies have reached the quality standards! You can achieve this in 1 or 2 intensive years, it’s everyday, minimum 10 hours on a drawing, don’t stop before reaching the standard.

For the next phases, and as you are curious about the ā€œbuilding wayā€: it’s about all your knowledges and fixing. From scratch, the best tools are your brain and stepbacks:
ā€œIs it credible?ā€

  • No - it’s about more knowledge and fixes (anatomy book, clay, whatever but not a dirigist reference, because… you know),

  • Yes - you can experiment or refine area to improve quality,

Etc.. one foot after the other and don’t be afraid, it’s never fabulous during the first 10h, you have to learn that yet :slight_smile:

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Thank you, Michelist, both for your appreciation of my work, which makes me very happy :folded_hands::slightly_smiling_face:, and for the excellent advice you always give me.

You’re right; very few people are likely able to draw without references. Who knows, maybe one day I’ll be able to too. I hope so!

I know many use references, even I do, but sometimes I’m amazed at how some artists manage to create an image from scratch without any references. Some might think these drawings have been created and reworked so many times that they know them by heart, and perhaps for many, that’s the case.

But I’ve seen artists in some competitions who were given an envelope containing what they had to draw, and therefore it was impossible for them to prepare it in advance. It was astonishing.

That’s why I asked if there was a way to improve in this area, perhaps with specific exercises. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Ciao Sognidigitali, ti scrivo in italiano perchĆØ dal nome presumo tu sia italiana, il che sarebbe il massimo per farmi comprendere, perchĆØ spesso uso google translate ma mi storpia le traduzioni.

Ovviamente visto le regole nel forum poi metterò anche la traduzione in inglese (con Google translate, dato che purtroppo non so l’inglese​:grin:).

Detto questo innanzitutto ti ringrazio per aver risposto al mio commento.

Hai perfettamente ragione, se non specifico l’area di mio interesse sarebbe un po’ troppo generico richiedere un consiglio.

Ma se devo essere sincero, non ho ancora capito quale possa essere la mia area di interesse.

O meglio credo che forse non l’avrò mai, mi piace variare, non fissarmi su un unico genere, dopo un po’ mi viene a noia.

Per quello vario il più possibile.

Unica cosa che non penso farò mai sono tipo fumetti come Micky mouse, paperino o cose del genere non fanno per me.

Al contrario fumetti più in stile americano come supereroi non mi dispiacciono, ma anche con questi, non credo che mi cimenterò mai anche in questo genere se non sporadicamente per ricreare qualche personaggio.

A me piace molto il disegno della figura umana, dal ritratto alla sua rappresentazione completa, la rappresentazione di paesaggi e anche quelli che disegnano ambientazioni anche fantasy.

Non mi interessa (almeno al momento) l’animazione.

Ho iniziato a disegnare, partendo con i ritratti.

Ma credo che sia una cosa piuttosto comune con chi si avvicina al disegno.

Poi ho notato che mi piaceva la rappresentazione della figura umana, per cui ho acquistato diversi manuali di anatomia artistica, per cercare di comprendere meglio come era composto un corpo umano nelle sue varie parti dallo scheletro alla muscolatura e come questi elementi, influenzassero la rappresentazione della figura stessa.

Trovo che il corpo umano sia fortemente espressivo, nonostante penso sia una delle cose più difficili nel disegno.

Una cosa ho capito bene ĆØ che appena inizi a comprendere una cosa, ecco che devi ripartire con un altra. :grin:

Ad esempio finora ho lavorato su carta e matita.

Quindi solo con la grafite e quando poi sono passato sul digitale e stato una tragedia capire come riuscire a riproporre quello che sapevo fare su carta, in digitale.

Poi a forza di riprovare e riprovare qualcosina sono riuscito a migliorare, sono due modalitĆ  differenti di disegno.

Trovo ad esempio ancora difficoltĆ  nella tenuta della penna.

Nella maniera tradizionale con carta e matita a volte tenevo la matita in diverse posizioni, mentre sul digitale sono obbligato a tenerla in poche posizione poichƩ alcune non sono possibili.

ƈ un limite questo che alcune volte si fa sentire.

Il mio percorso nell’ arte ĆØ semplice.

Nel tempo ho acquistato o fatto dei corsi anche in presenza (anche piuttosto impegnativi in termini di prezzo), che ripetavano o trattavano cose che giĆ  sapevo, nonostante venissero pubblicizzati come il corso definitivo.

Per cui alla fine, ti rimane quella amarezza di aver speso soldi inutilmente e non aver ricevuto niente in termini di miglioramento artistico e di comprensione di quel argomento.

Questo purtroppo, come ho scritto anche nel commento iniziale ĆØ una cosa che ho constatato spesso.

Dai libri a corsi vari che ho comprato e frequentato si parla sempre di regole basi e generiche e soprattutto su figure o oggetti statici.

Non ti spiegano mai come applicare quelle nozioni quando devi creare ad esempio una figura in movimento o in prospettiva, dove quelle regole vanno a farsi benedire, se non del tutto quasi.

Esempio pratico: la storia che il corpo umano è inserito in 7 teste e mezzo, in una rappresentazione con una forte prospettiva ti serve il giusto saperlo, poiché si deforma fortemente.

La stessa prospettiva ti viene spiegata spesso superficialmente, eppure ĆØ una cosa fondamentale nel disegno a prescindere del campo in cui uno si voglia specializzare, almeno questo ĆØ un mio pensiero, poi magari sbaglio io.

Le stesse luci e ombre, ho comprato corsi e libri in cui ti spiegano sempre le regole basi, come ad esempio: l’ ombra portata, l’ombra propria e il terminator che separa la transizione, il come un oggetto presente nell’ambiente e il suo colore influisca riflettendolo sull’ombra stessa dell’oggetto che stiamo rappresentando, la riflessione dei materiali ecc ecc.

Non so se esistano dei libri o dei corsi più specifici, che permettano di approfondire il discorso delle luci e delle ombre, ad esempio di come le ombre debbano essere rappresentate nello spazio quando colpiscono un oggetto o una figura umana.

Credo che esista un metodo per le proiezioni delle ombre affinché abbiano una logica e non semplici patacche che stanno a rappresentare più o meno un ombra.

Ecco queste cose vorrei approfondire.

Spesso mi sento sempre come se mi mancasse qualcosa.

Anche se ogni tanto (raramente) bum!! capita e non so nemmeno io come capiti, che si sblocca qualcosa (forse a forza di provare e riprovare), che mi permette di migliorare nettamente il mio workflow.

Però ci arrivo quasi casualmente, magari dopo aver perso tanto tempo inutilmente.

Quando con un buon metodo magari otterei gli stessi risultati in meno tempo.

Beh!! Mi sono dilungato troppo, scusa.

Ritornando al discorso principale non saprei quindi nemmeno io dove vorrei inserirmi.

Sicuramente come ti ho scritto mi piacciono in ordine: rappresentazione della figura umana, paesaggi e ambientazioni e quindi credo che mi piacerebbe qualcosa che avesse a che fare con queste cose.

So che esistono ritrattisti, come anche paesaggisti ecc ecc.

Ma almeno come ti ho spiegato non vorrei fossilizzarmi in un genere.

Per me essere artisti, significa essre capaci di fare qualsiasi cosa uno voglia.

Da un ritratto, ad una raffigurazione completa del corpo umano, alla rappresentazione di un paesaggio ecc ecc.

La cosa che posso dirti ĆØ che spesso ho molte idee in mente ma ho difficoltĆ  nel riproporle e finisco sempre a fare ritratti o paesaggi, solo alcune volte quando mi stanco cerco di proporre qualcosa di mio.

Cosa che ultimamente sto cercando di fare più spesso e partendo da zero e spesso ci provo anche senza reference.

Magari costruisco bene la scena, le pose dei personaggi ma poi ho un blocco.

Per quello ho fatto questa domanda, capire o farmi dare un aiuto da chi è più esperto a come superare questo blocco e arrivare magari un giorno ad un livello tale da non essere più vincolato della necessità di avere una reference.

Forse mi manca un metodo.

Come ho scritto ho moltissimo ancora da imparare, fondamentalmente sono agli inzi, sono 3/4 anni che disegno.

Il che ĆØ magari nulla per chi lo fa da 20 o passa anni.

Ma vorrei ottimizzare il mio tempo in maniera più efficente, magari in questi 4 anni ho sprecato tanto tempo inutilmente e se avessi avuto un metodo migliore, forse avrei ottimizzato quello che ho imparato nella metà del tempo.

Quindi se hai da darmi qualche consiglio o dritta per ottimizzare il mio workflow e apprendimento, sono più che felici di ascoltarlo.

English translate (Google translate)

Hi Sognidigitali, I’m writing to you in Italian because from your name, I assume you’re Italian, which would be the best way to make myself understood, as I often use Google Translate, but it gets messy.

Of course, given the forum rules, I’ll also post the English translation (using Google Translate, since I unfortunately don’t speak English :grin:).

That said, first of all, thank you for replying to my comment.

You’re absolutely right; if I don’t specify my area of interest, it would be a bit too general to ask for advice. But to be honest, I still haven’t figured out what my area of interest might be. Or rather, I think I probably never will. I like variety, not being stuck on a single genre; after a while, it gets boring.

That’s why I vary as much as possible. The only thing I don’t think I’ll ever do is comics like Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, or things like that aren’t for me. On the contrary, I don’t mind more American-style comics like superheroes, but even with these, I don’t think I’ll ever try my hand at this genre except sporadically to recreate some characters.

I really enjoy drawing the human figure, from portraits to complete representations, landscapes, and even fantasy settings.

I’m not interested (at least not yet) in animation.

I started drawing, starting with portraits. But I think it’s quite common among those who are new to drawing.

Then I noticed I liked the representation of the human figure, so I bought several artistic anatomy manuals to try to better understand how the human body is composed of its various parts, from the skeleton to the muscles, and how these elements influence the representation of the figure itself.

I find the human body highly expressive, even though I think it’s one of the most difficult aspects of drawing. One thing I’ve learned is that as soon as you start understanding one thing, you have to start with another. :grin:

For example, so far I’ve been working with pencil and paper.

So, I only used graphite, and then when I moved to digital, it was a tragedy to figure out how to reproduce what I knew how to do on paper in digital form. Then, by trying again and again, I managed to improve; they’re two different ways of drawing.

For example, I still have difficulty holding the pen. In the traditional way with pencil and paper, I sometimes held the pencil in different positions, while with digital, I’m forced to hold it in a few positions because some aren’t possible. This is a limitation that sometimes makes itself felt.

My path in art is simple.

Over time, I’ve purchased or taken courses, even in person (some of which were quite expensive), which repeated or covered things I already knew, despite being advertised as the definitive course.

So, in the end, you’re left with the bitterness of having spent money needlessly and having received nothing in terms of artistic improvement and understanding of that subject.

Unfortunately, as I wrote in my initial comment, this is something I’ve often observed. From the books and various courses I’ve bought and attended, they always talk about basic, generic rules, especially regarding static figures or objects. They never explain how to apply those notions when you have to create, for example, a figure in motion or in perspective, where those rules go out the window, if not almost entirely.

Practical example: the story that the human body is contained within seven and a half heads. In a representation with strong perspective, you need to know this properly, as it distorts significantly.

Perspective itself is often explained superficially, yet it’s a fundamental aspect of drawing, regardless of one’s specialization. At least, that’s my opinion, but maybe I’m wrong.

Light and shadow, too. I’ve bought courses and books that always explain the basic rules, such as cast shadows, self-shadows, and the terminator that separates the transition. How an object in the environment and its color influences the reflection on the shadow of the object we’re representing, the reflection of materials, etc. I don’t know if there are more specific books or courses that allow for a deeper understanding of light and shadow, for example, how shadows should be represented in space when they strike an object or a human figure. I believe there’s a method for shadow projections so that they have a logic and aren’t just gimmicks that more or less represent a shadow. These are the things I’d like to explore further.

I often feel like I’m missing something.

Even though every now and then (rarely) boom!! it happens, and I don’t even know how, that something unlocks (perhaps through trial and error), which allows me to significantly improve my workflow.

But I get there almost by chance, perhaps after wasting a lot of time pointlessly. When with a good method, perhaps I could achieve the same results in less time.

Well!! I’ve gone on too long, sorry. Returning to the main topic, I’m not sure where I’d fit in either. As I wrote, I certainly like, in order: representation of the human figure, landscapes, and settings, and so I think I’d like something that had to do with these things. I know there are portrait artists, as well as landscape artists, etc. But at least, as I explained, I don’t want to get stuck in one genre.

For me, being an artist means being able to do whatever one wants. From a portrait, to a complete depiction of the human body, to a landscape, etc. What I can tell you is that I often have many ideas in mind but have difficulty expressing them, and I always end up doing portraits or landscapes.

Only sometimes, when I get tired, do I try to propose something of my own.

Lately, I’ve been trying to do this more often, starting from scratch, and often even trying without references. I might construct the scene well, the characters’ poses, but then I get stuck. That’s why I asked this question: to understand, or get help from someone more experienced, on how to overcome this block and perhaps one day reach a level where I’m no longer constrained by the need for references. Perhaps I’m missing a method. As I wrote, I still have a lot to learn. Basically, I’m just starting out; I’ve been drawing for 3-4 years.

Which may not be enough for someone who’s been doing it for 20 years or more. But I’d like to optimize my time more efficiently. Maybe I’ve wasted a lot of time in the past four years, and if I’d had a better method, I might have optimized what I’ve learned in half the time. So if you have any advice or tips to help me optimize my workflow and learning, I’m more than happy to hear them.

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Hi Crazycatbird,

I also use photo references for poses, and when I can’t find anything, I also use a posing app for my characters, especially when I can’t find specific poses for what I have in mind.

This is also because the search becomes very difficult and often pointless because you never find what you’re looking for, so there are few alternatives: Either you have the money to hire a model, or, if you can save money, you can hire yourself or a friend to do the poses. Or, better yet, a program that allows you to recreate the desired pose.

However, even if I have a photographic reference pose or create the pose with the program, I’ve never used it as an image to trace.

I know it may seem silly, but I’ve always used images as references to place next to the canvas and then tried to recreate them freehand.

I’ve always done this to improve my skills in building the human figure. One day, through lots of practice, I’d like to have the skills, the knowledge, and the visual ability to understand where that limb will be positioned, however I want to position it in space, and perhaps even get there without needing photographic references or software poses.

I often practice this, without any kind of reference. I’m slowly improving this way of working, so much so that in the latest piece I’m working on, I didn’t use any photographic references or software poses for the characters’ poses, and they came out pretty well.

This means I’m slowly improving in this area, and I’m very happy about that :slightly_smiling_face:

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That’s not silly at all. That’s developing your skills.

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