Recent laws restricting minors from social media access - discussion of its compliance in our forum

Recently my country is debating on restricting minors (under 18 in my country) from social media websites. Organizations providing social media apps and services, websites would need verifiable consent of parents of the minors before allowing access to open account. The bill is still in draft stages but I think it will become law soon.

I have read about similar law in Australia which bans minors (under 16) from social media. There some other countries too where there are restrictions in place for the website admins to verify minors before processing their data. There is also a law in California which has similar requirements. The penalties and fines are also huge.

You might say it is for the instagram facebook type of social media. But from what I see we too are part of the social network on the internet. Since this is a place where people meet and share content it will fall under the ambit of such law. We would need to get consent from parents before letting minors in. This will be an impossible task for us with small moderation team. And we do not have the expertise to verify any claim by the person opening the account.

I do not know what policy KDE follows since this forum is hosted on KDE infrastructure I will try to get in contact with KDE people to know more about this.

So I would suggest we officially close the forum for anyone below 18 years of age. We can show the message that this forum is for people above 18 years of age and anyone who makes an account despite being below the age of 18 is not our responsibility. I do not know such disclaimer will be enough though.

I want to hear thought about this from the forum members, moderators as well as our team (@halla @wolthera @dkazakov ) and everyone

For what I know all these laws have exceptions for small websites and I’m pretty sure Krita artists doesn’t fit the social media network definition.

I can’t think anything else than what you suggest above, AI automated check, or change servers and domain (both registration and ownership) (to other country) to avoid responsability…

Maybe use a age gate or do as you suggest will be enough. You need to read the full law prop. to see if the forum is included as “Social Media Network”, like @Takiro suggests, may even not be included in the law for being small website, and, if you can use the “+18 button” or the age gate instead of check the identity to confirm age.

Good luck, best regards!

That’s great! All new users from countries not affected by this will be pleased that the forums they want to register with in future will first want to receive copies of their ID cards and passports so that the forums can then check the authenticity of the documents sent to them with their registration authorities. All just to prove that they are not meant and affected at all, as they live in unregulated nations.

In principle, I have no problem with the kids as long as they behave themselves here, and since they are no different from adults when it comes to behavior, there are such and such, I would find it a shame to have to exclude them.
But if it turns out that the forum would be endangered if we didn’t exclude them, then I would be forced to accept it for the continued existence of KA.

While I believe that KA is not the target to be hit/achieved because of the type of information offered here and the way we interact with each other, it worries me that forums like us would be accepted as collateral damage if we were to be shot down by the “heavy artillery” directed against Facebook, TikTok and co.

However, I also wonder how Google/YouTube, all the meta offshoots, X & the like are going to validate this? Or how small sites like us could guarantee this?
This practically means the end for all small forums, as they lack the means to guarantee a legally valid age check, including access control. We can only hope for a clause that spares small forums like ours.

Furthermore, we can’t be sure that the newly registered user isn’t using a proxy or VPN to disguise their country of origin.
This could only work, if at all, if the countries that introduce something like this provide those who are supposed to enforce it with the means to carry out a check against the database of the respective nation. That would be utopian! 1984 becomes reality.
In addition, these countries would have to technically ensure that their inhabitants could neither use proxies nor VPNs, because otherwise it would be (almost?) impossible for the “social media” that are supposed to regulate access to firstly locate the users and secondly then check their age in a legally secure manner and sort out those who are too young to be blocked.

So, as an essence out of the above, if enforced I had to accept it, but I do not like it. And I can not see how we should guarantee that everything is okay, and the users are who they claim to be, if the countries that implement these laws do not provide the whole world with the means to enforce their laws for the countries.

They want to turn us into cheap vicarious agents of their surveillance state fantasies. And in all of this, I do not deny that I do not approve of the unrestrained consumption of this social media by children and young people who lack any experience in dealing with it. But in my opinion, it is the task of parents and guardians, who are abdicating their responsibility towards their children, to educate their offspring instead of using this digital Valium (cell phone) to turn them into (loosely based on the motto: give the child a cell phone, then it will be busy, and we parents will have our peace!), dangerous addicts for society, who are not able to classify what they are consuming, because nobody discusses what they see with them. The kids just blindly believe the content that sells them the best (whoever presents them with the best lies is often the most viewed content provider), without the content being the best, which tends to be garbage.

In fact, future parents should be required to take a test in order to be allowed to father children. Only those who can prove their maturity and ability to raise and care for them should be granted permission. Of course, this is now exaggerated beyond measure, as is this encroachment on the right to raise one’s own offspring or let them go to waste.


If we must restrict to save the forum, I would accept it. But I can not say that I like the idea, this is so beyond measure.

Everyone is under massive threat because Zuckerberg and his cronies can’t get enough money into their coffers, regardless of the price. Now even the fact-checkers are being abolished so that nobody exposes a lie as a lie, as it is the most mendacious story that bring them the most clicks and therefore the most money. Great!

Michelist

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This doesn’t work unless also changing citizenship and physically moving to another country because the law of the country you live in still applies to you, no matter where your domain is registered.

Any way, in case of Australia, so far what I found is, that any site that can be accessed without registering is excluded and that also what is considered a Social Media Platform is explicitly listed in the law.

However the minister, Michelle Rowland, has said the ban will include Snapchat, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and X. Gaming and messaging platforms are exempt, as are sites that can be accessed without an account, meaning YouTube, for instance, is likely to be spared.

So as long as legislation is not considering and explicitly including Krita-Artist in the law, it is not affected.

I assume other laws will be similar.

Additionally an effective age verification could violate other laws that are are for preventing unnecessary data collection and processing.

Legislation also acknowledges that there is currently no technology to do this age verification and until there is no solution to even identify individual users, it is not applied.

These law and regulation took my dream away, I wish I was born in a country where there is no law and regulation everyone lives for themself, and live a happy life. there would be no politics, no money involved only barter system would be fine for me.
Anyway in this life we have to follow the rules which was made by some guy who have liberty and freedom in his pocket.

For now I would keep calm and wait. An “18 only” warning would likely scare away even eligible users because it gives the impression of being a porn site.

It’s like back then, when the cookie ban came around and now even innocent websites have a cookie banner they probably don’t even need and warnings that make them look like data scapers even though the only thing they maybe save is if you selected the dark theme on their website or something.

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I share Takiro’s concern, 18+ is synonymous with THAT type of site :smile: Is 16+ restriction not effective in this case?

But anyway, I think the first step should be to wait for the legislation language to finalize and then get a professional legal advice. Could Krita/KDE use some of the fund money to do that, perhaps? Then, once you know the implications you can implement an optimal solution.

Anything that involves sharing documents sounds terrible, though… I hope filling in a form and checking boxes would be sufficient (just like when you buy stuff online and need to agree to a purchase contract).

yeah, when i mean change the domain ownership i mean to pass the server and domain to another Krita Dev (that @raghukamath trust) to take his legal obligation.

That means the domain owner and server owner have to be in other country, US for example, that is not affected by this law.

Probably using AI, google already have a service in Google Cloud name “Identity Doc AI” and can already check multiple countries ID’s already, probably Meta, X and the others will create something like this to speed things up…

Agreed, but if have some explanation i think it would be ok, just put the country flag that have this law on top of the warning, most people will understand directly what it means!

Yes I agree with this. I will read more about these laws and see if there are exemptions like you stated.

As I understand the situation (but I may be wrong or out of date), the forum is hosted on a server in Germany that is now owned-(rented?)/controlled by the KDE organisation which is a registered non-profit organisation in Germany.
The other two administrators of the forum are the Krita Lead Developer and the Krita Chief Bug Wrangler.
The Krita Foundation itself is a non-profit registered in The Netherlands.

Most people don’t read much and don’t read carefully and they don’t understand much directly or immediately.

I wasn’t fully aware of it but the UK will have something like this. I thought it was only for gambling and ‘adult’ sites when I read about it some time ago:

An extract:

They don’t have to be based in the UK for the act to apply. If the service has a significant number of UK users, if the United Kingdom is a target market, or the site is capable of being accessed by British and Northern Irish users and there is a material risk of significant harm to such users, then the law applies.

It would be up to the website owners/controllers to demonstrate to the ‘UK authority’ that there is no risk and that processes for monitoring and mitigation of potential harm are in place.
It seems that ‘small’ forums are exempt but how do they know that K-A is ‘small’?

Who has to publish a summary risk assessment on their website? Sites with 34 million or more monthly active UK users. The threshold is lower for services that allow users to forward or reshare user-generated content and use a content recommender system: 7 million or more UK users. Organizations with a smaller number of users will simply have to have the document ready should Ofcom request it.

There is a questionnaire you can take to check if your site will be regulated by the UK. Ofcom Regulation Checker

Already the first question is:

Your online service has links with the UK if:

  • UK users are a target market for your service; or
  • It has a significant number of UK users

So, I don’t know how much traffic Krita-artis gets from the UK but if it’s not much, the law already doesn’t apply.

If we look at the matter purely statistically, then we should be out of the number. The forum has, as I’m writing this, 32242 registered members, divided among the 193 countries recognized as nations by the UN, we get an average of 167 users per nation across all registered users.
Yes, there are nations with higher user numbers, but on the other hand the forum is only used by ~1400 users per week on average. The majority of these 32242 users can only be considered “sleepers” or registered non-users, if at all, if I look at the weekly logins (not registrations!) in the forum.
So if we divide these 1400 users by 193, then we probably come away with 7 users per week for each country that allows/admits these nullity clauses, as quasi non-existent. And even if a country like England, New Zealand, India or the USA, or whichever country, had 5 or 10 times as many users, we would probably be out of danger with up to 70 users from country XYZ.

Michelist

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