New feature: Comic Panels tool/layer (asking for wishes, needs and ideas of comic artists and others)

[tiar]

So I will be working on a comic panel creation oriented tool and since I want to make it all the best and most flexible it can be, I thought it would be best to ask here for requests.

I need:

• examples of your most complex comic pages, if you’re making a comic (for example panels being over each other, content of one layer going out of the frame, background being another panel etc.), you can also give examples made by someone else (make sure to link to the image or website and not just embed it)
• description of your workflow (like, first you do this, then you do this, and you use this and that feature for that)
• your needs in creating comic panels (what is it that takes you the most time when making frames? what is the most inconvenient?)
• your wishes for what you think would be really good to have (is there something (artisitc) you are not able to do now, because it’s hard to do with existing tools, but would like to?)
• your ideas for how it could work overall

How to get A+ for your comment

As in, how to make your comment extraordinarily useful.

• idea for how it could work implementation-wise (you know how layers work in Krita in general, how could panel layer work in that context?)
• priorities for features (some features are obviously more needed than others, some are less obvious, tell me which one you’d like to get first, and which one you can live without)

Current basic idea of the comic panel thingy:

• it would be probably a new type of layer
• there would be a knife tool as well, to slash one panel into two panels (possibly it could work with other vector shapes as well)
• I want to make it non-destructive, so you can change the panels sizes and shapes even after you already painted all content
• I want to make it trivial to not go out of the frame (using a mechanism similar to alpha lock/inherit alpha/clipping mask)
• I want to make drawn borders optional, and for the user to be able to draw the border themselves using brushes (either like how assistants work or how stroke selection works)

Rules for discussion:

• do not say “please just do it like in this software”, you can only do so if you add “but with this change that would improve the functionality” - I do research other programs in that regard, and I agree CSP is really good already, but I do want to explore new ideas as well. So saying “do this like in CSP” will be just redundant. (you can mention other software if it’s not CSP or Medibang, then I’ll check that other one too).
• keep to the topic: don’t talk about comic bubbles, text tool, big long webcomics, Comic Manager etc. That will be a topic for another day.

---

Thanks!

---

CC @Deevad

[Grum999]

Hi

I personally don’t really work on comics and probably don’t have really idea about the subject.

But, I understand that this tool will be a native Krita tool, not a plugin tool like the existing one.

And looking what you wrote here:

@tiar

• it would be probably a new type of layer
• there would be a knife tool as well, to slash one panel into two panels (possibly it could work with other vector shapes as well)
• I want to make it non-destructive, so you can change the panels sizes and shapes even after you already painted all content
• I want to make it trivial to not go out of the frame (using a mechanism similar to alpha lock/inherit alpha/clipping mask)
• I want to make drawn borders optional, and for the user to be able to draw the border themselves using brushes (either like how assistants work or how stroke selection works)

My only wish would be to have new functionalities/properties (or most relevant of them) available through python API

Grum999

[Michelist]

@I9S

I would like to see some things in Krita for the web-comic format: usually page with extreme long ratio.

@tiar

Rules for discussion:

…

• keep to the topic: don’t talk about… …big long webcomics…

Michelist

[mmiller]

Hi, I bring 3 examples of pages that I worked on.
Maybe we can extract something from here.

My notes are:
In some cases the frames are part of the scene contained within the frame.
There are also characters outside the frame and some frames were drawn by hand. Therefore, there are frames with ‘crooked’ lines and which have different shapes, which can be oval or have any possible shape.

How I usually work:
First I create the thumbnail from all the pages.
I also make notes on the balloons, as they take up a lot of space and have a special weight in the layout.
When I’m finishing, the layout can take another direction… and many things can be changed.
I usually make the frames sometimes manually, other times I do it with the rectangle tool. Until today I haven’t worked using vector for the frames.
This is important, I use the text tool and then manually redraw the characters.

[tiar]

You can start a new thread with those ideas. I know Dmitry plans to work on making Krita able to handle documents with big memory needs, and then we could work on making specific things for this workflow. (Though making the limit in Comic Manager higher is trivial, I can try to do it soon, I guess 50.000px would be good enough… for some time, at least).

Your post was very good and specific, just I already have a specific goal and that was not included (yet). (Note that I agreed on three projects, so I don’t want to broaden the projects too much. This project is just for a specific tool. The assistant project is more about “improve the assistants in any way possible” so that’s where I can add or remove tasks as I wish - I will probably make a post about assistants too, in a near future).

[EyeOdin]

Honestly I never did comics but I do love reading comics and I have NO idea of csp or medibang tools if I reiterate some is pure random.

The only thing I can think of is being able to add control points that can align to each other on page and then you can connect the dots you want with the layed out control points forming a Polygon or Bézier when connected.

Maybe if it makes a closed path they can create a mask area you can active or connect to a layer and they would display the name of the layer under some condition. Closed paths would reflect the colour code of the layer they would be connected to for ease of use.

If the control points were animatable in the timeline and curves it would be very useful for animation too even illustration I imagine.

The path geometry could do a:

• solid shape between points that are closed.
• border that goes in and out
• border that just goes in
• border that just goes out

Lines and paths could overlap and be over or under in groups but points exist in the same plane and could snap to each other.

Maybe a tool to edit these control points since they would have special behaviour on how they were interacted with.

[Mako_Matt]

i don’t do comics but i’ve seen this recently

Krita Vector Comic Panel Tutorial

maybe some good approach there

[kaichi1342]

This is pretty much targeted for me. I would love to get more examples but my most of my files are at my home pc towns away from me.

I’ll answer some of the questions on how I work;

This is my template;

For now I have a group for frame; they are technically just drawing of frames. I tried using rectangle tool but I end up just drawing them with brush and assistant;

for clipping - I have layer 23 so it wont go out of bounds.

The end page without text

@tiar

Current basic idea of the comic panel thingy:

• it would be probably a new type of layer
• there would be a knife tool as well, to slash one panel into two panels (possibly it could work with other vector shapes as well)
• I want to make it non-destructive, so you can change the panels sizes and shapes even after you already painted all content
• I want to make it trivial to not go out of the frame (using a mechanism similar to alpha lock/inherit alpha/clipping mask)
• I want to make drawn borders optional, and for the user to be able to draw the border themselves using brushes (either like how assistants work or how stroke selection works)

All of this are amazing start point.

Ill go find some of panels that have been inspiration for me and gather more of my thoughts.

@tiar

• priorities for features (some features are obviously more needed than others, some are less obvious, tell me which one you’d like to get first, and which one you can live without)

cutting frames/ making frames with or without drawn borders and clipping/alpha masking image with it.

if its possible to clip on only one or two side.

I think that would have address most use case.

Most of my works are things I make just because… mostly for my friends.

[kaichi1342]

an addition to @mmiller points.

I drew some sketch of the types of frames i have seen before , from the mangas I’ve read.

The artistic use of frames as part of the story telling, like fragments turning to frames, or frames use to fragment a drawing fascinates me.

IDK if this help, since I have no idea how any of the other software does this. I personally just draw them using parallel ruler.

For reference on how i see frames are employed in story telling;

Spill-overs and partial clipping. [I honestly dunno if its possible to implement, but i see this effect alot] In where the object is only clip on some sides and spills over other. Including spilling over another frame.

These are manga pages [idk if its allowed here but i have no skill to copy the framing] i think shows how crazy or simple it can get.

Ballroom youkoso have lots of overlapping panels all throughout the story.

I personally don’t expect the upcoming feature to address all of these. These are just references of how i saw it use mainly in manga.

I think the important thing that should be there are;

1. Creating Panels of any shape / with or without borders.
2. Option to clip images within that frames / but still having option of the frame bisecting the image instead.
3. Allowing panel on panel / or stacking. Even if the stacking are two of this panel layers [if its a layer type] on top of each other’s group.
4. The empty space outside of the frame should still allow for the background image to show through instead of blocking it.

---

Other that um nice to have.
5. *** If it can be done - I hope it can allow spill over [nice to have but i think it can be achieve in a different way] ***
6. It would be nice to drop or load predefined shape or layouts into it.

@Mako_Matt

i don’t do comics but i’ve seen this recently

maybe some good approach there

I like this approach. Only if it can be flipped. If the white or inner frame is the white and the outer frame is transparent. that way the inner frames can be used as cutter for inherit alpha. Or if it can create those blocks to be used as a clipper. overall this is an intuitive approach that can work and is pretty flexible.

[djwaterman]

Your line of thinking is already pretty on track, you can probably only go so far with this given how different comic borders can be, however anything that allows the artist to choose the parameters as they go to get the look they aim for is all you can do, I’ve not used any of the current comic templates or what ever already exists as they almost push you into a specific design look and I don’t want my application setting the terms. Most comic artists will just do their own borders the way they do it, but if you can create a tool that actually helps speed things up but doesn’t dictate the results, then you’ll have made a big difference.

[Michelist]

@tiar

Rules for discussion:

• keep to the topic: don’t talk about …

big long webcomics, Comic Manager etc. That will be a topic for another day.

@LaTor

I’m not sure if this would be included in this feature, but it’s difficult to create webcomics with the current features in Krita and it would be nice to have some things that could help with the process.

My Current Workflow

• Create a project with the Comic Manager to hold all the pages

As much as I understand that you want to see your beloved cause promoted, I don’t understand your posting. Did you even read to the end of the first post? Did you notice and read my first post in this thread?
Don’t you read before you write?

Michelist

[tiar]

In the usual manner of

I just created a topic for long webcomics and other comic-related stuff… Comic workflow - general ideas and feature requests (including long webcomics!)

@I9S if you want, you can post your comment there. If you can’t access it, I can still do that, so you could write a comment there and I would copy the content, if you wish.

@LaTor I moved your comment there already because I wanted this topic to be very specific. I answered you there already as well.

[Reptorian]

@tiar

I know Dmitry plans to work on making Krita able to handle documents with big memory needs, and then we could work on making specific things for this workflow.

As someone who has done 1.9 GB painting with nondestructive editing, that is exciting.

[mmiller]

Very good!
I hope my English didn’t get confused, because at times I should have written ‘panel’ instead of ‘frame’.
But you were very didactic and accurate, thanks!

[Hologram]

To start off: I don’t create comics, but I do layout stuff for posters/ books.

Layout capability
The way I see the comic panels is more like vector based frames similar to the ones you would be using in Indesign/ Affinity Publisher. Even if it is not the goal to be a layout software, I think it is a good opportunity to move into that direction for a bit. In my opinion, these frames could contain either external files (without rasterisation) or be worked on within the current file (i.e. for comics).

Properties
For me the frames need full control, either parametric properties (e.g. width, height, corner options) or manually with bezier handles so they can be edited with the vector tools. Most of this is already there in the vector tools, they just need some polishing and the ability to see individual objects in a vector layer. Maybe the vector layer should be expandable to show individual objects.

Initially, I thought these frames should be visible in a frames panel, but then you need to manage layers, pages, vector objects and frames. I think the frames should instead be their own layer type. Like in Affinity Designer, there is a top layer for the artboard and everything that is on that artboard is contained within the top layer. You can have nested layers there as well of course.

Vector shape
Any vector shape should be convertable to a frame. Images can be placed within the frame.

Hierarchy
Alternatively, we could opt to have a page panel and pages, so pages can be shuffled around. It would also serve as good thumbnail viewer. Then there would be a frame layer, which, is like a vector layer. This splits the page into several artboards procedurally. So changing the shape of a frame layer, changes the individual artboards, but, you should also be able to edit the stroke for adjacent frames that both need to be clipped while their edges remain parallel.

1. Page
2. Frame(work)
3. Artboard
4. Content

The layers panel should then follow this hierarchy by (optionally, since there was a discussion on indents earlier) indenting the layers based on this hierarchy. Lower hierarchy items are nested within the previous item. Content layers (vector/ pixel layers) are indented more than artboards, etc.). I would have the pages layer/ header display differently (darker than the rest of the layers in the panel), it does not necessarily need indentation.
If the page layer/ header would contain the frames, there would be no proper way to move parts of the frame in front/ to the back.

You can draw within the artboard by selecting it in the panel/ on the canvas > hotkey to edit (like Blender’s tab to edit and/ or double click). When editing, any part that crosses the boundary of the frame will be shown in a lower opacity. It is helpful to be able to go out of bounds as the frame may not be the correct shape. Krita should allow for editing frame & context in any sequence.

I think you either want to:

1. Use special frames that are in a special layer: “frame layer”
2. Differentiate between vector objects and frames by having the frames in a different tool by default and to use vectors as frame you need to convert them to frames by placing content within the frame note that indesign does not differentiate between layers at all and that can be perfectly fine too as it needs less ‘micro’ management.

Spillover
For spillover, maybe there could be a frame property that makes it so that any particular edge of the frame (whether curved or straight) does not clip into the content, instead, it moves that portion of the edge below the artwork that is contained within the frame. I would go about making this spillover property handle dependent, meaning, if you select a line, go to ‘spillover’ and set its value, if you select an handle, you’ll see its value displayed (like with opacity). But I can also imagine a gradient spillover, so there’s a transition between no spillover and full spillover. This would be achieved by selecting individual points and associate a value to them.

Wish
Basically, I am hoping that by combining the vector and comic panel tools, we will get better features for both. One thing that would really help is individual control over vector shapes in that you can see the points/ handles for an object that is selected.

[EyeOdin]

If one page is a kra file there could be a new file format that would containt several pages inside like a tomb. This would work only like shell container to hold the files inside. Adding or subtracting kra files to an existing tomb would be nice also. This would act just like a collection or folder filled with files inside.

[kaichi1342]

I would love that.

Krita already have plugins and tools that cater to comic artist.

This suggestion OTH wont only benefit comic artist I can see it being useful as sort of sketchbook.

If i recall correctly - being able to make a sketchbook like thing is part of the wishlist in krita by devs.

[Hologram]

@EyeOdin

If one page is a kra file there could be a new file format that would containt several pages inside like a tomb. This would work only like shell container to hold the files inside. Adding or subtracting kra files to an existing tomb would be nice also. This would act just like a collection or folder filled with files inside.

In the Affinity suite, all apps use the same file format. So the file type can be either single page or multipage. If you consider multiple pages as multiple artboards, then you don’t really need to two different file types. Instead, the pages could be like artboards that are handled automatically by Krita, based on page settings as opposed to artboard settings.

What are the advantages of a tomb file type? Being able to nest kra files in other kra files would be much more flexible, wouldn’t it?

[novames00]

It turns out that I am a comic artist and I use Krita mostly…
Here are some page layout examples :

If I may suggest one thing, it would be to have adjustable gutters(lines that divides panels to create frames). I’m also thinking of having vertical gutters vs horizontal gutters(I guess the knife would automatically decide which is best depending on the angle of the dividing line ?), and being able to snap each created frame to a guide line.
As the frame’s shape is modified, its corresponding mask would also change.
This would probably be impossible to implement without vectors.
Speaking of guide lines, one thing to note about comic templates, is that we usually have multiple areas to take into account for the layout of the page(text/dialog area, final size of the page if it was trimmed for book printing, bleed area, trim area). To illustrate this, I’ll take an example of some manga page layout tips :

So regarding this, maybe by extension, the feature giving us the possibility to define width and height of each area would be a blessing. Creating guidelines and placing them at a precise position on the canvas, is also a workaround to help decide how the layout will look.
But it’s just by extension and this one is probably relevant only for comic document guideline creation. So this one would fit in another feature request, I guess.
Anyway, that’s it for my comment.

Additional reference, frame upon frame, with the left frame adjusted so that it fits into the dialog area guideline :