Potential improvements to Inherit Alpha in Krita

[Reptorian]

To be honest, I can’t find where’s your icon mockup, but in any case, I think I can accept bars icon provided there’s that whatever symbol that is called in the old icon. Something like the old icon with bar(s). Multiple bars would be inherit alpha, and single bar would be clipping mask.

[Deif_Lou]

I don’t like to think in terms of key modifiers or right click in krita’s ui if possible, not only for accessibility sake but also because krita is meant to be used in tablets, with a pen. So I tend to think that if something can be made just with clicks, then better.

I also think that (repeating myself), since the selected method may change if the layers docker redesign is made, we should choose a simple method.

[tiar]

@Reptorian my icons:

@tiar

A quick mockup I did:
(…)
Inherit Alpha From Just One Base Layer icon (typical “Clipping Mask”):

Inherit Alpha From All Layers Below icon (Krita’s Inherit Alpha):

[Ralek]

I think we should take a step beck and think- what do we want artists to do with the two clipping options? Believe it or not, UI is more intention rather than implementation.

Right now here is what I’m reading into the UI suggestions:

• Option is a dropdown in the layer options submenu
  As this option is relatively hard to get to, we’re telegraphing to the user that they should choose the option that suits them the best, either out of comfort or utility. Changing is difficult and time consuming, so users should pick a side and stick to it.
• Alpha button is a 3-way toggle
  The easiest and most accessible option. This tells the user that they have multiple options to choose from, and that each option has its uses and merits in any workflow. Because they are placed in the exact same spot and use nearly identical icons, crafty users who may not know what multi-layer clipping is may be able to deduce what the first/second option does by association.

Personally, I like the 3-way toggle, and indented layers to show that it is currently clipping. I think this will allow users to expand their toolset easily, and not tuck away yet another useful feature behind several menus. It’ll also be familiar to users of other programs without explanation.

[Reptorian]

Yes, those will work, and definitely is compatible with the changes I suggest.

@Deif_Lou

I don’t like to think in terms of key modifiers or right click in krita’s ui if possible, not only for accessibility sake but also because krita is meant to be used in tablets, with a pen. So I tend to think that if something can be made just with clicks, then better.

I have a suggestion, maybe make it down to preference as a option. I don’t think people will agree on whether to have just clicks or modifier+click approach. I strongly dislike the idea of clicking multiple time just to get where I want. And then, have a vote on preference for default mode. For Tablet, I don’t think there should be a option because of the reason you point out. For PCs, definitely should be a option.

[Deif_Lou]

@Reptorian

I have a suggestion, maybe make it down to preference as a option. I don’t think people will agree on whether to have just clicks or modifier+click approach. I strongly dislike the idea of clicking multiple time just to get where I want.

Well, I meant that I don’t like to be able to trigger an action only if some modifier is used. You can have a way of performing the action only with clicks and also with modifiers.

[tiar]

Multiple clicks make it more discoverable (big plus for new users).

Modifier click makes it more convenient for long time users.

I think we should try to:

• make both inherit alpha modes more discoverable/easy to access, if we use the modifier click method (don’t have to be discoverable in the layer entry, but somewhere).
• make the multiple clicks more convenient for long time users.

Either could work.

[Deif_Lou]

@Yuri_B

Because if they are a minority then their method should be also a second setup in the config menus and not the main default behavior.

@Yuri_B

I guess most users are PC and not tablet, but I may be wrong there.

I prefer to think it twice, 5 times, 10 times, or whatever, and come up with a method that pleases everybody as much as possible without having them to set options. It is harder, takes more time (although it may reduce the number of complaints in the future), but that method is there somewhere.

I think that the 3 state button is the best for now. It is simple ui and code wise, it requires clicking only (can be used in tablets without problem), it is discoverable, it doesn’t take more space.

@Yuri_B

we can find ourselves in a situation with more then just 3 desired behaviors and that can get to a click nightmare very fast.

You don’t need more states for now. All the knock-out stuff should be implemented as in photoshop, via the layer style dialog.

@Yuri_B

I still don’t understand why a tablet user couldn’t hold a click

Hold and click is using the principal button (left button), which with a pen is the tip, so there is no problem I guess. It is already used to enter edit mode in the sliders for example.

@Yuri_B

Don’t tablet users already have to deal with it since we have already right click menu for layers and other stuff.

I just said that I don’t like to think that way when dealing with ui, not that it cannot be used. In tablets it is performed with a tap and hold with the pen (or finger). If I can solve the problem in other way, I prefer that to double clicking or hold and tapping with the pen.

[Deif_Lou]

I mean, we have been discussing this a couple of days and seems like it has to be done for tomorrow. I think we need the typical step back and let it rest on the back of our heads for some time.

@Yuri_B

what will the behavior be if people stack multiple single clipping mode on top of each other?

Write some scenario and I will try to see what should happen.

[Deif_Lou]

I don’t really know what you mean with “sum or intersect”, so yes make up some layer scenario and we’ll see. I don’t see the need for any other mode.

[Hologram]

@Deif_Lou

Let’s make a list. I would say that the main candidates are:

• tri-state button that rotates as you click (substitutes the current one)
• two buttons: one to activate/deactivate alpha inheritance (current one); another to set the method (one below vs. all below), maybe placed on the bottom toolbar.
• 3 state in where instead of cycle you just toggle on and off/last_used.
  And another action to choose mode (to be defined as some people have problem holding click and or modifier keys).
• any other I missed?

• I miss the keyboard shortcuts to toggle clipping masks on/off for either one layer or all below.
• A shortcut to convert one mode to the other
• A canvas input setting (i.e. to emulate clipping mask activation with alt-click like Photoshop)
• A drag mode where if you drag a layer more to the right, it becomes clipped.

And as @Yuri_B said the toggle on/ off last clipping/ inherit method used.

@Ralek I understand that people would like to dee a three - way button, however I prefer the dropdown and change modes. The reason is, I rather take a bit of effort every once in a while than a tiny bit everytime I use the button. Having to double click/ tap to cycle to the second option becomes a chore quickly. I can tell you that. And if you accidentally misclick, you’ll have to cycle through again.

3ds Max always cycles the active selection tool if you press the selection tool again and it caused me a lot of accidental wrong selection modes. I know I definitely don’t want that and it’ll be the first thing I will disable if I can. Sorry to be so harsh on this idea, but I want to be upfront on this one.

Then again, if I can drag and have the hotkeys, I don’t mind the three-way button as much, because I wouldn’t be forced to use it. Then I would be okay with it as temporary solution until the layer docker redesign.

[Hologram]

@Deif_Lou

I mean, we have been discussing this a couple of days and seems like it has to be done for tomorrow.

Awww, I thought we’d be selecting someone to pull an all-nighter so we can test it before tomorrow morning

Let’s see if my summary post helps to put it aside for a bit and let those who haven’t managed to read up on all of this catch up and respond. Let’s not discuss too many details today/ tomorrow to give those people a chance.

[Deif_Lou]

@Hologram

I miss the keyboard shortcuts [etc.]

Keyboard shortcuts are a plus feature that is easy to put there and that will be there. I just don’t mention them because I see them as an alternative of doing things, like many other shortcuts, and I think they are implied.

[Reptorian]

@Deif_Lou

I mean, we have been discussing this a couple of days and seems like it has to be done for tomorrow. I think we need the typical step back and let it rest on the back of our heads for some time.

So, should we put it into a vote or make the easiest answer, but if there is a good percentage that is not sastified, expand on the approach option? Or a incremental implementation where two approachs would exist at the end. Wait for the vote to end, and then see how to proceed?

[Deif_Lou]

I know that. What I don’t know is why that is a problem that needs 4 methods of clipping. That’s why I asked you to come up with some layer combination that uses the two methods and you think is problematic.

[Deif_Lou]

In the second scenario, do you want layer 1 to be clipped to the intersection of layer 2 and layer 3?

[Michelist]

Thank you, and all those who are pleading for simplicity!

@Ralek

and not tuck away yet another useful feature behind several menus.

That is what I fear most. Looking into the future, I’m able to see the avalanche of support-requests because of hiding the options deep in the menus.

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@Yuri_B

We have to also consider if tablet user are a majority or a minority.

They are the majority. I assume so because of all the questions that are asked in the “Green area of this forum” on this subject! It is definitely the main problem, so most users will have tablets.
It’s the area of the forum I know best, since that’s where I spend most of my time. Ask the users that support other users, and you’ll probably get the same answer.

Michelist

Add: Wow, 13 more posts while I was writing mine.

[Reptorian]

@Michelist

They are the majority.

This I doubt because Tablet support is only recent and is beta phase now. PC users are likely to be the majority.

[Deif_Lou]

@Yuri_B sorry, it may be that I’m getting asleep, but I don’t get it. Are they complaining about something they don’t have (krita’s inherit alpha)? Or are you talking about the knockout feature (that should be solved in the blending options)? I don’t get it, I’m not joking.

I think I’m going to sleep a bit.

[Michelist]

Oh, f…! My bad English. I thought of Graphics-Tablets, not of Android or whatever Tablet-Computers.

I can’t keep up with all the postings and the mass of text I have to translate. As mentioned above, it overwhelms me.

Michelist